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Sunaikinti

Xr500 firmware updates

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Thanks for the feedback guys  

So you know, we are working on DumaOS Milestone 1.4 right now. We don’t give release dates but obviously we want all DumaOS users to get this as soon as possible. 

NETGEAR also input changes to their side of the firmware (Settings, drivers etc). All of this takes time to test and make sure it’s stable, which is why updates tend to be large and every few months rather than small but frequent updates. 

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Guest Killhippie
On 3/30/2019 at 11:43 AM, Netduma Admin said:

Thanks for the feedback guys  

So you know, we are working on DumaOS Milestone 1.4 right now. We don’t give release dates but obviously we want all DumaOS users to get this as soon as possible. 

NETGEAR also input changes to their side of the firmware (Settings, drivers etc). All of this takes time to test and make sure it’s stable, which is why updates tend to be large and every few months rather than small but frequent updates. 

The XR500 is a little over 3 months and not one update for current issues, and no updates from Netduma for issues with table view inconsistencies with port mapping compared with NTGR port mapping. Even if it is only visual it should be fixed.

 Also still no UPnP tables showing on my router (had three from a beta unit to present unit that has the port numbering the right way around on the back) and only one firmware ever showed UPnP info, but then again I use a mac and Firefox and it seems if you don't use Windows and Chrome that's always the issue. So many times I see "try another browser like Chrome" as a fix. A router should work with all the major browsers not be developed to work with just Chrome, I have issues with Chrome and Flash so neither are used on my device, and I use Duckduckgo as my search provider I try to avoid Google as much as possible, so Firefox should work just fine, and so should Safari and Opera, as well as the mobile Safari browser. Saying that logging in via even any tablet can be a mess.

 These are things that need to be fixed before adding more features, unless you just plan to fix bugs and regressions in Milestone 1.4 which tbh does not make me fill me with confidence. Right now some of Milestone 1.3 quirks should have been ironed out as well as bug fixes from NTGR. Also can't you get NTGR to update its GPL source code, things like OpenSSL and miniupnd which is still over a decade old and patched in binary but not actually replaced properly, or maybe you should let a third party developer in to add to your firmware so NTGR have to update this stuff. Voxel who produces a NTGR firmware fork for the R9000 and R7800 can kick new versions with updated packages and bug fixes in week or two while having a full time job. So why Does NTGR never update any of this code, and why don't you push them to do that? I had high hopes that Netduma would get NTGR to update this stuff, but the XR500 is still running the OpenSSL version1.0.2n released in Dec 2017, and its not like there hasn't been any CVE's for OpenSSL or newer versions to patch these security holes since December 2017 either.  :(

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As you can imagine a launch of a product is a hectic time, it takes awhile to determine any common issues and then fix that on both sides, test, fix, retest etc. We can't determine when NG will release updates unfortunately.

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Guest Killhippie
14 hours ago, Netduma Fraser said:

Totally understand your point, in an ideal world we could pump out updates every week but it's the nature of the beast! Development is never as simple as you want it to be!

We are approaching 4 months with out an update, not even a security patch from NTGR or a Netduma fix for issues with the table view for device manager just to name one current bug among many. It seems like the router is just not that important, after all all those shiny AX devices must be getting ready for DumaOS as Wi-Fi 5 is not a selling point this year. At this time the XR450/500 feel pretty abandoned tbh. I have to say if the continued lack of development  for small but needed updates for "milestone 1.3" or NTGR hardware continue  I'll be looking at new routers that are maybe not so niche and that get at least quarterly updates, I mean even the R7800 has a newer update than the XR500. This forum and the hardware it supports feel very stagnant at this time I have to say. :(

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35 minutes ago, Killhippie said:

We are approaching 4 months with out an update, not even a security patch from NTGR or a Netduma fix for issues with the table view for device manager just to name one current bug among many. It seems like the router is just not that important, after all all those shiny AX devices must be getting ready for DumaOS as Wi-Fi 5 is not a selling point this year. At this time the XR450/500 feel pretty abandoned tbh. I have to say if the continued lack of development  for small but needed updates for "milestone 1.3" or NTGR hardware continue  I'll be looking at new routers that are maybe not so niche and that get at least quarterly updates, I mean even the R7800 has a newer update than the XR500. This forum and the hardware it supports feel very stagnant at this time I have to say. :(

Bear with it Killhippie. I can empathise with how annoying it must be, since you can't see behind the veil. The XR500 is far from being abandoned; the development behind the scenes is extreme at this point. We can't tell you exactly what's being worked on at any time, but I can tell you it's exciting and will be worth the wait.

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12 hours ago, Netduma Jack said:

Bear with it Killhippie. I can empathise with how annoying it must be, since you can't see behind the veil. The XR500 is far from being abandoned; the development behind the scenes is extreme at this point. We can't tell you exactly what's being worked on at any time, but I can tell you it's exciting and will be worth the wait.

You guys said the same thing about DumaOS which took a few years to accomplish and from what I can see has no real benefit over the old OS other than aesthetics.

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55 minutes ago, xolhid said:

You guys said the same thing about DumaOS which took a few years to accomplish and from what I can see has no real benefit over the old OS other than aesthetics.

It's a complete OS so takes time, the benefit is what we'll be able to be able to bring to it now and in the future. Without it the original firmware would not have developed much. It's already brought new features and will continue to bring more. If you don't feel the benefit now then you will

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I shelved it till they fix it. Upnp and all forwarding screwy. And let us turn off spi. It's hit detection that matters. Something is just off with the xr500. Shooting a uav and half the shots register!

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Speak the word Sunaikinti!! I shelved mine weeks ago.. For some of the exact things you have mentioned and xr500user pointed out about QoS becoming inoperative.. Way to many issues with this gem atm.. Since I hooked up my old ASUS things are now at least consistent.. And back to normal..  I will be watching for this next update.. But something tells me the next new firmware will have issues of its own!! 

I actually wish Netduma would come out with there own new router! 

Zippy..

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3 hours ago, Netduma Fraser said:

It's a complete OS so takes time, the benefit is what we'll be able to be able to bring to it now and in the future. Without it the original firmware would not have developed much. It's already brought new features and will continue to bring more. If you don't feel the benefit now then you will

Features! Its not features most of us here are looking for.. We are talking more in the present of current features and bugs that don't work and need fixing! We just want what we have now to work somewhat consistent and stable.. Its cool to look into the future but lets work on the present conditions first!  You guys need to push on Netgear a bit also to fix things on there end too..  Lets not become the little guy here.. Flex some Duma muscle.. ;)  Don't roll over and play dead to Netgear.. 

Zippy.

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So can we get some truth out here?  So what is the true hold up? Development, Testing, Product Management, Lack of Focus, Time, Money?  Also while you are trying to be witty and come up with a response.  Please tell us the real truth about the NetGear and NetDuma relationship/t?  NetDuma has this opportunity to become the kings of gaming routers and own the market.  Only if they can get this pulled together and release updates more frequent.  Also how do you not have beta testers for the xr500/700 that just seems insane.

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4 hours ago, jlpotter76 said:

So can we get some truth out here?  So what is the true hold up? Development, Testing, Product Management, Lack of Focus, Time, Money?  Also while you are trying to be witty and come up with a response.  Please tell us the real truth about the NetGear and NetDuma relationship/t?  NetDuma has this opportunity to become the kings of gaming routers and own the market.  Only if they can get this pulled together and release updates more frequent.  Also how do you not have beta testers for the xr500/700 that just seems insane.

my guess is that the XR500 was merely a "test subject" to test the "market" water, as such.... From the lack of firmware updates since launch, we can pretty much determine that this router is now dead in the water , and Netgear just keep pumping out variants for no sensible reason , other than PROFIT! 

...and , Netgear are probably the worst company DumaOS could have jumped into bed with....! There were much better to choose from guys....

 

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Ach. Fraser is spot on and what I said earlier is probably just what I'd repeat. Speculation like this leads down a rabbit hole and ultimately ends negatively - it'll probably get to the point where no matter what us at the Netduma team say, it won't resonate. I'll say a few points that should hopefully hold true:

- The XR500 and DumaOS in general aren't an 'experiment', but they are cutting-edge. New technology is a hard beast to tame, but DumaOS is far more stable than our previous software.

- Netgear are the perfect fit for us (or more specifically, Nighthawk Pro Gaming). Their hardware is legit as hell. XLR pointed out that they're releasing new routers for profit. I absolutely agree with him, that's what they do best - their routers are the best on the planet for hardware, and releasing ones at lower and higher specs is an industry standard.

- Stability is number one on our priorities, and every milestone brings with it a ton of fixes. It's easy to forget how many bugs have been fixed over the years in lieu of more persistent problems, but we plan to stamp them all out in the end!

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Guest Killhippie
On 4/11/2019 at 3:15 PM, Netduma Jack said:

Ach. Fraser is spot on and what I said earlier is probably just what I'd repeat. Speculation like this leads down a rabbit hole and ultimately ends negatively - it'll probably get to the point where no matter what us at the Netduma team say, it won't resonate. I'll say a few points that should hopefully hold true:

- The XR500 and DumaOS in general aren't an 'experiment', but they are cutting-edge. New technology is a hard beast to tame, but DumaOS is far more stable than our previous software.

- Netgear are the perfect fit for us (or more specifically, Nighthawk Pro Gaming). Their hardware is legit as hell. XLR pointed out that they're releasing new routers for profit. I absolutely agree with him, that's what they do best - their routers are the best on the planet for hardware, and releasing ones at lower and higher specs is an industry standard.

- Stability is number one on our priorities, and every milestone brings with it a ton of fixes. It's easy to forget how many bugs have been fixed over the years in lieu of more persistent problems, but we plan to stamp them all out in the end!

While I do see your point, Jack. Something feels like it has changed behind the scenes. NTGR always give out quarterly updates for bug fixes and updates like the R7800's update to dnsmasq 2.78 and login password enhancement in 1.0.2.62 for routers that are current and worth their time and effort as they are still bring in cash, the R7000 is a good eaxple of a router that was kept going well past its sell by date because it worked so well, and people kept buying them.

 Anyway back to the router in hand, you could add the promised new icons for different devices, you could work out why UPnP does not show on Macs running Safari and Firefox. There are the leaks in the VPN app that need fixing, the messed up port table view and inconsistent actions of the old view (still showing devices online that are not) General bug fixes are needed on the way to milestone 1.4, tbh I have no need to know what's  ahead but I am more interested in the here and now and the bugs that exist now. Also updates to present issues which were kind of promised, like simply providing more icons for devices was talked about early last year in march I think although I may be mistaken, anyway well before talk of milestones, but when milestone 1.3 hit we never got them.

 Software development is very complicated more so than maybe I can imagine, but you cant leave everything and just concentrate on the latest and greatest milestones and new routers for NTGR which I'm sure you have been asked to furnish with DumaOS and at the same time just not fix current issues, its like the XR450/500/700 have to be shelved because you don't have the manpower to look after them and develop new firmware for new upcoming hardware and Milestone1.4 at the same time. This is why I feel unsettled I have to say.

 Voxel and kamaj keep posting new updates for the R7800 NTGR fork as well as NTGR themselves and that router even though the hardware is almost identical was released in January 2016, Its a very popular model, and there's the rub. NTGR don't just stop pushing updates to their kit, there are always bugs to fix, and I am sure you have versions of DumaOS that would cure some of the GUI issues, and patch other issues in milestone 1.3 I would hope. So keeping a small team working on the bugs of the XR range would be surely prudent? Right now having a router sit idle with no updates, and not a whiff of when the router will get one leaves me to think that Netduma and NTGR have other plans with the new AX devices and these current routers will be at some point hit with EOL because of a lack of interest and ultimately financial gain by NTGR. Of course I could be very wrong, and I hope I am but in all my years of using NTGR hardware the silence has never been so deafening.

 NTGR are here to make a profit and that's what they should be doing, you guys are too, your company has to grow as well. You want DumaOS to evolve, but when I realised the last update to the XR450/500 was December 2018 it felt quiet perturbing. I do not believe there are no security fixes that need patching, and that Netduma have nothing in milestone 1.3 that needs tweaking, we know there are issues, but If its going to be that we now wait for new milestones before we get updates from Netduma/NTGR the gaps in between updates will be to long and current bugs will just remain unfixed and people will just move on as the router is not behaving in a stable enough fashion.

 Being both reactive and proactive and keep people updated with fixes so they know their hardware is as up to date as possible while squashing as many current bugs as you can is just as important as working on new versions of DumaOS. Imagine if say Apple only released iOS 12 and never patched it to sort out GUI bugs and security issues until iOS 13 a year later, that would be the death of them. The same with Android being patched monthly on some devices too, I guess my point is there are always things to fix. As it stands right now it feels like present hardware is kind of less important due to things happening behind the scenes we are not privy to which is fair enough, but when there are patches to put out so why are you not pushing them to NTGR and more worryingly why are NTGR not just updating their firmware if nothing else.

 The current hardware and and how it works will determine the future of new hardware by proxy if you see my point. If people just see inactivity for months on end why would they buy into new versions of NTGR gaming hardware and DumaOS if the same thing will happen again. I know you guys are busy, and I appreciate the hard work you put in, but it does feel like the old hardware is just gaining dust while Netduma works on new versions of DumaOS, as well as new hardware from NTGR that you need to furnish with DumaOS as well.  That's just how I feel, I may be well off  the mark and I really hope I am, but equally I hope you can understand my fears, during this period of dormancy        

 

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Disappointing that they do not have a beta firmware program.  The hardware works well for me, but the firmware does have its issues.  I have also disabled QOS and the Device Manager is not very useful with all of the offline devices listed.  I also lose connection to the internet when game consoles are not powered off properly.  I lose connection to the internet if the router is rebooted while the modem is on.  These all seem like fixable issues, but it seems like these folks are focused on bigger and better things at the moment.  Early in the life of the router...Netduma would give out beta firmware that tried to address identified issues.  Now...not so much.  Something changed for sure.

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5 hours ago, xr500user said:

hey! just wanted to check in.  I'm still here and I do pop in from time to time, but the time between times has gone long in the tooth ..everything said was spot on. 

Still have all the issues I discussed in the past, and I even sent them a huge list of things I noticed to look at  -- but instead of working on it they moved on to the next milestone rather then fixing 1.3 issues.   I have a feeling the new milestone will come out introducing a ton more bugs and we will always be in a bugged state.  NetDuma has a small team and only a handful of that team who have the skill to develop and Netgear keeps pushing new models to flavorize with DumaOS -- you can bet on it AX is taking all the time right now and everything else is just back burning... plus the fact that Netgears Taiwan developers really can't work with NetDuma OS and introduce fixes (xr700) that create more problems (they even said they didn't know netgear released an update that hosed new things in netduma for xr700 in a prior post).

So Netduma has moved on to new features, Netgear is fixing things they don't know how to and at the same time overloading Netduma team to flavorize their existing hardware routers and re-brand them instead of introducing something new.  So now we have an R7000 duma os?? uhh, who's even buying that.

Yes, devices still hang in online and offline state in Device Manager, port numbering debacle, lack of updated modules and security fixes, buggy QoS, DNS sync problems,  I can go on and on.. I know how to fix these without rebooting or flashing firmware (I haven't re-flashed it once since I owned it) but you have to correct these errors in terminal mode. I chuckle every time I see a new post from someone asking about devices or not being able to connect or internet dropping, or why doesn't my XXX device connect, and response posts are always what firmware are you on, reboot,  reflash, do this do that, when it ain't gonna do a darn thing, because it needs to be fixed OS side.  I do have a 100+ day uptime right now, but QoS is disabled - so I'm not really getting any benefit from this OS.  And like others, soon going to be moving on to other solutions since I can't take any real advantage of what this offers in this bugged state, and not going backwards to XR700 or AXwhatever it is.. because Netgears new AX is coming out soon (the 12 streams).  And I'm starting to evaluate competitor routers.  Actually, the 12 stream has been ready even before the AX6 was released. It's going to Orbi also. So anyone who has that AX6 is already outdated, oh well.   They have the hardware ready and do targeted releases to bring in the most money (yeah any company would do this) but instead of releasing the best and making it the one and only..... every flavor needs to be milked first.

well it's been long enough now (over 4+ months) so I guess I can release one more issue  now.. The Data Analytics process has been enabled by default since day 1 sending data back to Netgear.  Check your web console Settings, Administration, Firmware update  -- You see the option to not automatically update firmware (a plus) --  but where's the data analytics option? oh. hmm. ok. I disabled the process manually.

I did not find a way to disable it from the original firmware release until I looked again today, but the latest firmware may have been updated to do this on install, I did not check. So I can't be sure.  But  I found this in there, and you can check if yours is on..

Go to http://192.168.1.1/simple_conditions.html to check -- or at least make sure it isn't on by forcing it off.

Just to let you know I was right that Netgear has one base core they use for all their routers and tweak for each, here's an example TOS htttp://192.168.1.1/BRS_tos.html  (but it's for orbi, lol) There is tons of things still in there from other routers (streamboost things, etc that are conflicting with Duma) cron jobs that are running, etc to update streamboost when the router doesn't use streamboost.  Probably much more that I didn't see with the old modules, etc. These things are contributing to the problems people are having, and Netgear is focusing on the next router rather then fixing things in the firewall that are blocking peoples connections via QoS.  The firewall is really complex this why it prevents most of the attacks even with the older modules, but it's got its quirks that piss off Device Manager and block some local network devices from making certain types of connections, only causing customer complaints.  Maybe this time it's been so long because they are going to actually fix everything, but new milestone issues will just probably give us all a do over , if that happens, sorry to say -  I'm out.

Thank you xr500user for posting this.. This has brought things to a much higher level of light! Things you have stated above I have been trying to point out for a very long time.. Mainly how QoS becomes non functional.. Along with everything else you covered above now all comes together.. I was wondering when you were going to post here.. Good to see you again! Regardless if the new milestone fixes all of these issues will be the number one factor moving forward.. If this does not get resolved and turned a blind eye then this will become the undoing for Netduma.. Even if they are totally unaware of these issues means very little to costumers at this point.. Ive been on this forum long enough to notice a pattern of people with issues that all have that deep similarity in them.. I cant believe that Netduma doesn't notice this.. They have too!  I posted on a topic that you had posted on awhile back and asked Netduma if they have made any headway or got to the bottom of some of these issues you mentioned in that post.. I never got a reply.. And the reply I did get didn't even touch on the subject..

 Am I upset.. You bet! But I do still have a bit of faith left in Netduma.. But if the next new milestone doesn't even touch on these things or even make an attempt Im more then out! I will wash my hands clean of this thing faster then one can say go! I currently don't even have this hooked up anymore.. Could no longer take the headaches..  If Netduma decides to come out with there own new router then im all in!! Id be more then happy to support them.. This Netgear/Netduma thing we have now is problematic.. Im sure most of these issues are on Netgear.. But Netduma's  name is on it as well..  And if you have forwarded your findings to Netduma then they should be aware of these issues.. But ive asked about this before with them and haven't heard a thing! And that bothers me very much so..

 Thanks again for posting here again! I do hope you post here when the next new milestone is out.. And fill us in on some of your findings if these issues or some of these issues have been resolved.. 

 Zippy..

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