The tickrate debate

[N3CR0]

Question... going slightly off topic...

But what is the difference in using a VPN and using the geo filter to say... I'm in the UK but gonna force the geo to make me always play on a US server.

They both gonna do the same thing right?

[Netduma Fraser]

30 minutes ago, N3CR0 said:

Question... going slightly off topic...

But what is the difference in using a VPN and using the geo filter to say... I'm in the UK but gonna force the geo to make me always play on a US server.

They both gonna do the same thing right?

Using a VPN will add an extra hop to the connection to the server & potentially change your route as well which adds latency. The Geo-Filter simply ignores all other connections the game tries to make other than what you've essentially allowed through your settings.

[N3CR0]

1 minute ago, Netduma Fraser said:

Using a VPN will add an extra hop to the connection to the server & potentially change your route as well which adds latency. The Geo-Filter simply ignores all other connections the game tries to make other than what you've essentially allowed through your settings.

But if I connect to a US server from the UK, thats going from 16ms ping to 80+ which is added latency and surely changing the routing also right?

Just sounds like the same thing to me tbh. I'm curious about it.

[Netduma Fraser]

Just now, N3CR0 said:

But if I connect to a US server from the UK, thats going from 16ms ping to 80+ which is added latency and surely changing the routing also right?

Just sounds like the same thing to me tbh. I'm curious about it.

Well thats your choice to connect to the US and due to the distance it would increase the ping of course, the route would take you there regardless if thats the server you wanted to play on. However, say the game server was in New York and you connected to a VPN in New York thats still an extra step which raises latency. For example:
Non VPN - UK > New York Game Server
VPN - UK > New York VPN Server > New York Game Server
That extra hop adds ping and that example just assumes the route stays the same for both which it won't always do.

[ItsMrWes]

Somehow I’m beginning to think MW counters the Netduma benefits, thus creating crap gameplay. 
 

im just tired of seeing the Duma team reply to every question as “well what’s your settings”, “it’s coming soon”, “that in game ping is amazing”, “send a screenshot” etc. to every damn person. 
 

clearly our experience is not amazing. I paid $300 for a router that is basically the same as any other dual band router. I don’t wanna see some generic response either because the game counters this OS.

[Netduma Alex]

4 hours ago, ItsMrWes said:

Somehow I’m beginning to think MW counters the Netduma benefits, thus creating crap gameplay. 

It's possible. There are some games that will never be compatible with Geo-Filter because of the way they work. I do however think that Modern Warfare can be made to be compatible, but it's not as easy as just whitelisting a few servers.

4 hours ago, ItsMrWes said:

im just tired of seeing the Duma team reply to every question as “well what’s your settings”, “it’s coming soon”, “that in game ping is amazing”, “send a screenshot” etc. to every damn person. 

Well it's hard to reply to something vague like "it just doesn't feel crisp" or "I know my ping is good but it doesn't feel right"... It's hard to do anything with that information when the numbers appear to be good. Also, asking for clarification is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. How are we meant to respond if we don't know about the user's network environment? Much better to ask for clarification than to just take shots in the dark, in my view anyway.

4 hours ago, ItsMrWes said:

clearly our experience is not amazing. I paid $300 for a router that is basically the same as any other dual band router. I don’t wanna see some generic response either because the game counters this OS.

Well it makes sense that over time the CoD games would get better at dealing with lag out of the box. The concern is the rising prevalence of matchmaking based on skill, which is the primary thing I think we can combat with the Geo-Filter. Currently the Geo-Filter doesn't work well with Modern Warfare, but it works with all of the old CoD games, and many other games. For those players, it was worth the money.

Since we don't have any direct contact or relation with Activision, we have no insider information about how their games work. We have to buy the game at launch like everybody else and figure it out from there. Unfortunately this does occasionally mean that the Geo-Filter isn't fully compatible at launch. For many games, it does work straight away, just not for this one it seems.

[Bert]

There is no need for VPN etc there is much more advanced ways.

 

First of all, most big youtubers use a private lease line instead of a commercial / residential ISP. That gives them a big leg up.

 

VPN, bandwidth throttling etc.

 

If you want to screw around with latency. Use a PC, add a second networking card. Connect your PS4 or Xbox to that and use the windows ICS option. Then on your PC use a program like SoftPerfect Connection Emulator (this works but is expensive) or Clumsy (free but more tooling required) and you can set your latency to the server independent on upload, download, traffic classes etc. For example with the first program you can set the extra latency to UDP traffic only. If you set that, ping google from the PC or whatever and it will show a nice 10ms, but play MW and all of a sudden you can have a 1000ms latency or whatever you set it to. These tools are actually banned by a lot of anti cheat software. For example I had a old copy of BO3 on my PC and Steam will detect the clumsy program and shut down the game. But obviously this will work if you run a console through a PC. And for the record I consider this cheating.

 

With the above you just set the PC in your geofilter as you would normally do with your console. And it works flawlessly. For port forwarding, you need to port forward from your router to your PC and on your PC forward to the console to get open NAT.

 

With the above I was able to in fact establish that the latency measurement in MW is done through UDP somehow. When I set extra lag on UDP traffic the latency meter in game shoots up straight away but the other traffic and the latency meter on DumaOS is not affected.

 

 

[SlingshotGamer]

23 hours ago, Crysister said:

Ok. But did you performe better in-game then??

Yes hitmarkers were on point as the router was stabilized

[N3CR0]

41 minutes ago, Netduma Alex said:

 

Well it makes sense that over time the CoD games would get better at dealing with lag out of the box.

They haven't though. They got worse and worse every year. They don't have a clue how to write netcode. They only interested in sales, nothing else.

[N3CR0]

13 minutes ago, Bert said:

 

First of all, most big youtubers use a private lease line instead of a commercial / residential ISP. That gives them a big leg up.

 

 

 

I know but you can have the best connection in the world but that won't help you against awful netcode will it.

Bops3 and IW I found consistency in but WW2 and BOps4, I've found none. I'm fighting the crappy hit reg every time I play.

[Netduma Alex]

37 minutes ago, N3CR0 said:

They haven't though. They got worse and worse every year. They don't have a clue how to write netcode. They only interested in sales, nothing else.

Hmm, you might be right... I'm not a high level CoD player so I don't really know.

Maybe I should get more into CoD so that I can experience the issues myself and sympathise with the Netduma community.

[ItsMrWes]

Lol yes please sympathize with us haha. 
 

there’s no argument that it doesn’t work for past CODds. It’s just a bummer it’s not working for this one. 
 

you guys should try to form a partnership with Activision

[ItsMrWes]

Having a dedicated or lease line makes zero impact. 
 

I can confirm this as I have a 500/500 fios business line with static IP and it makes absolutely no difference. I also use IPv6 which makes zero difference as well. 
 

not sure how the YTers and streamers get these killer games consistently day in and day out. 
 

im beginning to think they know something that we don’t. 

[ItsMrWes]

I have a 500/500 fios business internet account with static IP, and I assure you I’ve noticed NO advantage. So Youtubers, streamers etc have to be doing something or know something we don’t. But I’m sure they get paid off to not share anything as their gameplays theatre consistent are surely to market “great gameplay.”

ive throttled my bandwidth and done countless testing with many different combinations and nothing seems to work. 
 

however, last night I randomly took my hardwired connection away and connected to the 5g wireless band while the game was booted up, and the game dropped me from 4000000kbps bandwidth to 2900000kbps. The tick rate on the router then read 120hz or more consistently and stayed there. 
 

but then when I restarted the game an hour later, everything went back normal and I got the usual fluctuations from 60hz to 120hz or more every single game. 
 

I give up on trying to fix the connection for this game

[ItsMrWes]

Question for the Netduma team

 

if I’m gaming through my Xbox one using the XR500 and want a VPN, would I install the VPN on my Xbox one or on the router? Or would I install on both?

 

and how would I set that up on the router if need be? Is there a step by step?

[N3CR0]

1 minute ago, ItsMrWes said:

Question for the Netduma team

 

if I’m gaming through my Xbox one using the XR500 and want a VPN, would I install the VPN on my Xbox one or on the router? Or would I install on both?

 

and how would I set that up on the router if need be? Is there a step by step?

If you wanna try a VPN to improve the game, don't bother. I tried it earlier, just made things so much worse.

[Netduma Fraser]

55 minutes ago, ItsMrWes said:

Question for the Netduma team

 

if I’m gaming through my Xbox one using the XR500 and want a VPN, would I install the VPN on my Xbox one or on the router? Or would I install on both?

 

and how would I set that up on the router if need be? Is there a step by step?

You wouldn't be able to do it on the console, you would have to do it through the router. Keep in mind you need a VPN subscription to a VPN provider. Here you are: http://support.netduma.com/en/support/solutions/articles/16000087492--dumaos-optimal-settings-guide-hybrid-vpn

[Bert]

3 hours ago, ItsMrWes said:

I have a 500/500 fios business internet account with static IP, and I assure you I’ve noticed NO advantage. So Youtubers, streamers etc have to be doing something or know something we don’t. But I’m sure they get paid off to not share anything as their gameplays theatre consistent are surely to market “great gameplay.”

ive throttled my bandwidth and done countless testing with many different combinations and nothing seems to work. 
 

however, last night I randomly took my hardwired connection away and connected to the 5g wireless band while the game was booted up, and the game dropped me from 4000000kbps bandwidth to 2900000kbps. The tick rate on the router then read 120hz or more consistently and stayed there. 
 

but then when I restarted the game an hour later, everything went back normal and I got the usual fluctuations from 60hz to 120hz or more every single game. 
 

I give up on trying to fix the connection for this game

Do you have a business account with a regular ISP in your area or a actual 1:1 lease line? (These are different as you are still using the same backend as the rest of the users on the ISP network on a business account, just the SLA is different and more strict than a residential connection) 

 

For a lease line they essentially dig a complete new cable to your place and you connect directly onto a backbone. And there is litterally no other users on your line, so no oversubscription. You can get a 10G line if your pockets are deep enough for example.

I think that there is also other tricks going on sometimes, like joining games with very low skilled players to circumvent SBMM. I have noticed some YTers always magically leave the matchmaking out of their videos for example. Downside is that you would need to do this every game over.

 

[East]

5 hours ago, ItsMrWes said:

I have a 500/500 fios business internet account with static IP, and I assure you I’ve noticed NO advantage. So Youtubers, streamers etc have to be doing something or know something we don’t. But I’m sure they get paid off to not share anything as their gameplays theatre consistent are surely to market “great gameplay.”

ive throttled my bandwidth and done countless testing with many different combinations and nothing seems to work. 
 

however, last night I randomly took my hardwired connection away and connected to the 5g wireless band while the game was booted up, and the game dropped me from 4000000kbps bandwidth to 2900000kbps. The tick rate on the router then read 120hz or more consistently and stayed there. 
 

but then when I restarted the game an hour later, everything went back normal and I got the usual fluctuations from 60hz to 120hz or more every single game. 
 

I give up on trying to fix the connection for this game

So wait a second in order to get 120Hz tickrate you have to be wireless?  Is a 5Ghz connection the game the secret to this 120hz tickrate?

Did you try to repeat what you did yet?

IE: "I randomly took my hardwired connection away and connected to the 5g wireless band while the game was booted up".That is very similar to DCM_81 video that I watched. 

 

[ItsMrWes]

2 hours ago, Bert said:

Do you have a business account with a regular ISP in your area or a actual 1:1 lease line? (These are different as you are still using the same backend as the rest of the users on the ISP network on a business account, just the SLA is different and more strict than a residential connection) 

 

For a lease line they essentially dig a complete new cable to your place and you connect directly onto a backbone. And there is litterally no other users on your line, so no oversubscription. You can get a 10G line if your pockets are deep enough for example.

I think that there is also other tricks going on sometimes, like joining games with very low skilled players to circumvent SBMM. I have noticed some YTers always magically leave the matchmaking out of their videos for example. Downside is that you would need to do this every game over.

 

It’s a business account with a given static IP. My bandwidth never changes and there’s zero congestion ever. 

[ItsMrWes]

8 minutes ago, East said:

So wait a second in order to get 120Hz tickrate you have to be wireless?  Is a 5Ghz connection the game the secret to this 120hz tickrate?

Did you try to repeat what you did yet?

IE: "I randomly took my hardwired connection away and connected to the 5g wireless band while the game was booted up".That is very similar to DCM_81 video that I watched. 

 

Im not really sure. I tried to redo everything after I had to restart my console but I couldn’t get it back. 
 

just to be clear, while I was on a higher tick rate, the game still played like garbage but just less garbage-ish if that makes sense haha. 

[GHOST-1-EC]

14 hours ago, N3CR0 said:

If you wanna try a VPN to improve the game, don't bother. I tried it earlier, just made things so much worse.

Did u use pingplotter to establish what yr connection looked like when using the VPN vs without it. 

Ie: how many hops to the game server was there with the VPN vs Without VPN - Did u pick up additional latency - Was there any packet loss? 

The pingplotter graph to a dedicated game server will give you the info needed to say for certain if using a Vpn is worth it or not. 

[Netduma Alex]

11 minutes ago, GHOST-1-EC said:

Did u use pingplotter to establish what yr connection looked like when using the VPN vs without it. 

Ie: how many hops to the game server was there with the VPN vs Without VPN - Did u pick up additional latency - Was there any packet loss? 

The pingplotter graph to a dedicated game server will give you the info needed to say for certain if using a Vpn is worth it or not. 

Personally I think that getting a better experience with a VPN would be pretty lucky...

But you're right, comparing the number of hops is a good idea. Better than just going on whether it feels better ot not.

[GHOST-1-EC]

15 minutes ago, Netduma Alex said:

Personally I think that getting a better experience with a VPN would be pretty lucky...

But you're right, comparing the number of hops is a good idea. Better than just going on whether it feels better ot not.

The hop count alone is key (the lower the hop count the better) - you can always tailor the bufferbloat settings around the graph itself to smoothen it out. 

[N3CR0]

1 hour ago, GHOST-1-EC said:

Did u use pingplotter to establish what yr connection looked like when using the VPN vs without it. 

Ie: how many hops to the game server was there with the VPN vs Without VPN - Did u pick up additional latency - Was there any packet loss? 

The pingplotter graph to a dedicated game server will give you the info needed to say for certain if using a Vpn is worth it or not. 

PingPlotter showed ping spikes all over the shop when using a VPN whereas I have none without and when I tried BOps4 I could not get anyone at all to drop.