If no QoS is DumaOS worth it?

[CRarsenxL]

So this is a topic I have been thinking about for awhile. I’ve got gigabit Fios. So QoS is not something I need at all really.

 

if I am not using QoS at all + geofiltering, what’s the point of buying a duma os router? I know the R2 has the advantage of being an an open wrt router but as far as NG+DumaOS combo.

 

1. does duma os still process packets faster? Therefore better optimized?

 

2. Does duma os have a faster packet forwarding rate? 

 

3. Is things like the conntrack being flushed out faster therefore making it better for gamers? 
 

like say we disable QoS on the xr1000 and not using geo filtering. What’s the difference between that , and say a 2.2GHZ RAX120 NG.

 

am I missing something?

 

duma doesn’t let us know under the hood details but I’d appreciate someone letting us know

[CRarsenxL]

@Netduma Alex @fraser @Netduma Admin

[Netduma Liam]

Apologies for the delayed response!

The first thing worth mentioning is that even though you have a very fast connection, there is still a benefit to using QoS. Due to the nature of TCP, congestion will still occur even on the highest bandwidth connections. This is because TCP will always try to send data as fast as possible until it encounters congestion and packet loss on your line, thus increasing average latency. It won't be as obvious as it would be on a 100MB connection, but it's still there.

To answer your other questions, DumaOS will probably process packets and forward things quicker than your standard modem/router combo because there's a lot less bloat, but it's not something you're going to notice, it will be very marginal. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the third question.

If you disable all of the router's main features, you're going to reduce the benefit it has to you.

[CRarsenxL]

On 12/3/2021 at 12:55 PM, Netduma Liam said:

Apologies for the delayed response!

The first thing worth mentioning is that even though you have a very fast connection, there is still a benefit to using QoS. Due to the nature of TCP, congestion will still occur even on the highest bandwidth connections. This is because TCP will always try to send data as fast as possible until it encounters congestion and packet loss on your line, thus increasing average latency. It won't be as obvious as it would be on a 100MB connection, but it's still there.

To answer your other questions, DumaOS will probably process packets and forward things quicker than your standard modem/router combo because there's a lot less bloat, but it's not something you're going to notice, it will be very marginal. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the third question.

If you disable all of the router's main features, you're going to reduce the benefit it has to you.

Would you say it could process faster than a regular netgear router? 

 

Thank you for the technical answer. Less bloat. Since you’re partnered with NG, does that introduce any additional bloat?

 

I know the R2 has the least amount of bloat but does processing power matter? I know the R2 lacks heavily on that 

[Netduma Liam]

On 12/5/2021 at 7:26 AM, CRarsenxL said:

Would you say it could process faster than a regular netgear router? 

Probably not, no. Processing speed isn't what's going to improve your experience though. The benefit of QoS is that your router has control over the network queue, this means it can prevent your priority traffic being held up behind less important background traffic. The benefits you'd get from a marginally faster processing speed is dwarfed by the benefits you get from using QoS.

On 12/5/2021 at 7:26 AM, CRarsenxL said:

Since you’re partnered with NG, does that introduce any additional bloat?

On the NG routers? No not really, their Network Settings have a few more features than ours but really it's not something you're ever going to notice if there is a difference.

On 12/5/2021 at 7:26 AM, CRarsenxL said:

I know the R2 has the least amount of bloat but does processing power matter? I know the R2 lacks heavily on that 

The R2 has Gigabit throughput, realistically you can expect this to be around 940Mbps in practise. If 

[CRarsenxL]

2 hours ago, Netduma Liam said:

Probably not, no. Processing speed isn't what's going to improve your experience though. The benefit of QoS is that your router has control over the network queue, this means it can prevent your priority traffic being held up behind less important background traffic. The benefits you'd get from a marginally faster processing speed is dwarfed by the benefits you get from using QoS.

On the NG routers? No not really, their Network Settings have a few more features than ours but really it's not something you're ever going to notice if there is a difference.

The R2 has Gigabit throughput, realistically you can expect this to be around 940Mbps in practise. If 

Thank you for the reply.

 

something I caught in one of netduma YT videos is the Use of traffic prioritization. Every router has queues , with traffic prio , you can put whatever you desire first at the cost of nothing pretty much. Because if you’re not using traffic prio, duma os will just use FIFO which any router can do. 

NG has its own queues, ASUS has its one queues, he’ll even your ISP has its own queues. Am I getting this right? Please correct me if I’m wrong ? Or do they all follow FIFO (which is not ideal for gaming)

Also does netduma have an optimal Ethernet PC property video?

secondly, regarding bufferbloat, I read an article where the engineer talks about bufferbloat can only happen on the upload part, is this true? In my experience, limiting download results in a poorer experience. 

https://www.speedtest.net/insights/blog/maximized-speed-non-gigabit-internet-connection/amp/

Lastly, regarding bloat within the firmware. I know it’s marginal, but would say NG standalone has slightly more bloat than NPG even though it’s layered? R2 being the king of them all obviously; btw any plans for a WIFI6 R3 OMG TAKE MY MONEY LOL

 

[Netduma Jack B]

Hi @CRarsenxL
I noticed that you said in your original post that you dont think that QoS can have an effect on your connection due to it being Gigabit- i recently tested this myself and have attached my findings for you to take a look at. They include steps to reproduce the experiment as well should you want to try yourself!

Furthermore, our WLAN Wireless QoS system makes an even bigger difference on high bandwidth connections, ill include the evaluation of that one as well.

I'll also try and answer some of your other questions, but i can't give too much information away about exactly how it works.

On 12/6/2021 at 4:57 PM, CRarsenxL said:

something I caught in one of netduma YT videos is the Use of traffic prioritization. Every router has queues , with traffic prio , you can put whatever you desire first at the cost of nothing pretty much. Because if you’re not using traffic prio, duma os will just use FIFO which any router can do. 

Yes, Traffic Prio is configurable to allow you to put any traffic that you want prioritised as long as you know the source ports or destination ports of that flow. As for FIFO, I don't think that we use it at all on our routers even if Netduma QoS is disabled, but i will have to ask a Developer when im back in the office.

On 12/6/2021 at 4:57 PM, CRarsenxL said:

NG has its own queues, ASUS has its one queues, he’ll even your ISP has its own queues. Am I getting this right? Please correct me if I’m wrong ? Or do they all follow FIFO (which is not ideal for gaming)

I'm not sure if i fully understand your question, but as for whether ISP's use FIFO - this is something that ISP's generally don't disclose.  I personally think this is due to the Net Neutrality movement a few years ago. If you're truly interested about how ISP's deal with congestion on their networks i would take a look at RFC6057.
 

On 12/6/2021 at 4:57 PM, CRarsenxL said:

Also does netduma have an optimal Ethernet PC property video?

No we don't! But I'll pass that on to Kieran as a video idea for the future!
 

On 12/6/2021 at 4:57 PM, CRarsenxL said:

secondly, regarding bufferbloat, I read an article where the engineer talks about bufferbloat can only happen on the upload part, is this true? In my experience, limiting download results in a poorer experience. 

From what i understand, bufferbloat can happen in both upload and download directions.
 

On 12/6/2021 at 4:57 PM, CRarsenxL said:

Lastly, regarding bloat within the firmware. I know it’s marginal, but would say NG standalone has slightly more bloat than NPG even though it’s layered? R2 being the king of them all obviously; btw any plans for a WIFI6 R3 OMG TAKE MY MONEY LOL

The NPG routers may have more layers to the OS, but they all make up for that by running on exceptional hardware - you can't really notice the difference. As for the Wi-Fi 6 R3  -

Hope this clears up all your questions.

DumaOS - Congestion Control testing.pdf

[CRarsenxL]

45 minutes ago, Netduma Jack B said:

Hi @CRarsenxL
I noticed that you said in your original post that you dont think that QoS can have an effect on your connection due to it being Gigabit- i recently tested this myself and have attached my findings for you to take a look at. They include steps to reproduce the experiment as well should you want to try yourself!

Furthermore, our WLAN Wireless QoS system makes an even bigger difference on high bandwidth connections, ill include the evaluation of that one as well.

I'll also try and answer some of your other questions, but i can't give too much information away about exactly how it works.

Yes, Traffic Prio is configurable to allow you to put any traffic that you want prioritised as long as you know the source ports or destination ports of that flow. As for FIFO, I don't think that we use it at all on our routers even if Netduma QoS is disabled, but i will have to ask a Developer when im back in the office.

I'm not sure if i fully understand your question, but as for whether ISP's use FIFO - this is something that ISP's generally don't disclose.  I personally think this is due to the Net Neutrality movement a few years ago. If you're truly interested about how ISP's deal with congestion on their networks i would take a look at RFC6057.
 

No we don't! But I'll pass that on to Kieran as a video idea for the future!
 

From what i understand, bufferbloat can happen in both upload and download directions.
 

The NPG routers may have more layers to the OS, but they all make up for that by running on exceptional hardware - you can't really notice the difference. As for the Wi-Fi 6 R3  -

Hope this clears up all your questions.

DumaOS - Congestion Control testing.pdf 1.34 MB · 2 downloads

Wow thank you for the answer. I very much appreciate it. I will dig into this and let you know my results.

 

Should WLAN be disabled ? 

[CRarsenxL]

19 hours ago, Netduma Jack B said:

Hi @CRarsenxL
I noticed that you said in your original post that you dont think that QoS can have an effect on your connection due to it being Gigabit- i recently tested this myself and have attached my findings for you to take a look at. They include steps to reproduce the experiment as well should you want to try yourself!

Furthermore, our WLAN Wireless QoS system makes an even bigger difference on high bandwidth connections, ill include the evaluation of that one as well.

I'll also try and answer some of your other questions, but i can't give too much information away about exactly how it works.

Yes, Traffic Prio is configurable to allow you to put any traffic that you want prioritised as long as you know the source ports or destination ports of that flow. As for FIFO, I don't think that we use it at all on our routers even if Netduma QoS is disabled, but i will have to ask a Developer when im back in the office.

I'm not sure if i fully understand your question, but as for whether ISP's use FIFO - this is something that ISP's generally don't disclose.  I personally think this is due to the Net Neutrality movement a few years ago. If you're truly interested about how ISP's deal with congestion on their networks i would take a look at RFC6057.
 

No we don't! But I'll pass that on to Kieran as a video idea for the future!
 

From what i understand, bufferbloat can happen in both upload and download directions.
 

The NPG routers may have more layers to the OS, but they all make up for that by running on exceptional hardware - you can't really notice the difference. As for the Wi-Fi 6 R3  -

Hope this clears up all your questions.

DumaOS - Congestion Control testing.pdf 1.34 MB · 5 downloads

Quick thing — I’m currently using games console service for my pc. Is that optimal? Also would you recommend ICMPv4 as well?

[Netduma Fraser]

17 minutes ago, CRarsenxL said:

Quick thing — I’m currently using games console service for my pc. Is that optimal? Also would you recommend ICMPv4 as well?

That's fine but no not really needed, ICMPv4 is more for diagnostics, would not equate to any real difference in gameplay quality.

[CRarsenxL]

27 minutes ago, Netduma Fraser said:

That's fine but no not really needed, ICMPv4 is more for diagnostics, would not equate to any real difference in gameplay quality.

I tried to relocate the test using ICMPv4 however it keeps turning off. I made sure network discovery on the pc was on. And I confirmed in pingplotter it is ICMP Windows DLL and tried Windows sockets and still not staying on 

[Netduma Fraser]

46 minutes ago, CRarsenxL said:

I tried to relocate the test using ICMPv4 however it keeps turning off. I made sure network discovery on the pc was on. And I confirmed in pingplotter it is ICMP Windows DLL and tried Windows sockets and still not staying on 

How do you mean it keeps turning off as in it disables or it stops prioritizing?

[CRarsenxL]

13 minutes ago, Netduma Fraser said:

How do you mean it keeps turning off as in it disables or it stops prioritizing?

The red light and packet counter stops

[Netduma Fraser]

Is it not staying on while you're running PingPlotter?

[CRarsenxL]

3 hours ago, Netduma Fraser said:

Is it not staying on while you're running PingPlotter?

Nope. 

[Netduma Fraser]

Are you running the PingPlotter interval at 0.1? If so can you try running it at the default 2.5 please and see if it works?

I can actually reproduce it so I'll pass it on.

[CRarsenxL]

24 minutes ago, Netduma Fraser said:

Are you running the PingPlotter interval at 0.1? If so can you try running it at the default 2.5 please and see if it works?

I can actually reproduce it so I'll pass it on.

I am on default 2.5…

 

 

[CRarsenxL]

2 hours ago, CRarsenxL said:

I am on default 2.5…

 

 

also If I don’t disable QoS, don’t use buffer, bandwidth allocation is default, no Traffic prio, what benefit am I getting still?

 

packet acceleration is off when QoS disabled? I left QoS on so I can still get that benefit, am I right on this?

[Netduma Fraser]

Nothing really, for all intents and purposes it is basically disabled. I believe packet acceleration is still enabled when QoS is disabled as it's a dedicated core.

[Bert]

Packet acceleration doesn't really matter as long as you can route at line speed.

 

I don't use QoS on my high bandwidth fiber lines but usually I don't generate enough traffic to saturate it anyhow. You have to also understand what does what. The anti bufferbloat sliders can alleviate bufferbloat at the ISP simply by lowering the rate at which they can send you data & prevent their buffers filling up. This can be done for 2 way traffic. Traffic prioritization queues however only work on upload. Simply put you cannot control in what order your ISP is sending you packets. These queues work on the sending side of interfaces. So upload would work on outgoing-WAN and download on outgoing-LAN. But there is no point to have these queues at outgoing-LAN simply because you can send it at least as fast as your data is coming in.

 

You have to also understand who these routers are meant for. Gamers that have no knowledge of networking and interfaces,  simple household with a few devices and want something that is simple to setup. It needs integrated wifi, integrated DHCP and It also has to be quiet and energy efficient.

 

There is much faster routers available with more advanced options in the prosumer segment for equal or less money, or if you build one yourself. They are however more complicated to set up and use.

 

If it wasn't for the geofilter I would build something more professional, ie a X86-64 PFSense box. $200 of old PC parts will wipe any sort of consumer router off the planet. Just need to use your own wifi AP.

[CRarsenxL]

12 hours ago, Bert said:

Packet acceleration doesn't really matter as long as you can route at line speed.

 

I don't use QoS on my high bandwidth fiber lines but usually I don't generate enough traffic to saturate it anyhow. You have to also understand what does what. The anti bufferbloat sliders can alleviate bufferbloat at the ISP simply by lowering the rate at which they can send you data & prevent their buffers filling up. This can be done for 2 way traffic. Traffic prioritization queues however only work on upload. Simply put you cannot control in what order your ISP is sending you packets. These queues work on the sending side of interfaces. So upload would work on outgoing-WAN and download on outgoing-LAN. But there is no point to have these queues at outgoing-LAN simply because you can send it at least as fast as your data is coming in.

 

You have to also understand who these routers are meant for. Gamers that have no knowledge of networking and interfaces,  simple household with a few devices and want something that is simple to setup. It needs integrated wifi, integrated DHCP and It also has to be quiet and energy efficient.

 

There is much faster routers available with more advanced options in the prosumer segment for equal or less money, or if you build one yourself. They are however more complicated to set up and use.

 

If it wasn't for the geofilter I would build something more professional, ie a X86-64 PFSense box. $200 of old PC parts will wipe any sort of consumer router off the planet. Just need to use your own wifi AP.

This is not true. Routers operate on a FIFO basis if no queue management is put into place. 

 

The buffers in which these queues can fill up to is something im not sure of.

 

[CRarsenxL]

13 hours ago, Bert said:

Packet acceleration doesn't really matter as long as you can route at line speed.

 

I don't use QoS on my high bandwidth fiber lines but usually I don't generate enough traffic to saturate it anyhow. You have to also understand what does what. The anti bufferbloat sliders can alleviate bufferbloat at the ISP simply by lowering the rate at which they can send you data & prevent their buffers filling up. This can be done for 2 way traffic. Traffic prioritization queues however only work on upload. Simply put you cannot control in what order your ISP is sending you packets. These queues work on the sending side of interfaces. So upload would work on outgoing-WAN and download on outgoing-LAN. But there is no point to have these queues at outgoing-LAN simply because you can send it at least as fast as your data is coming in.

 

You have to also understand who these routers are meant for. Gamers that have no knowledge of networking and interfaces,  simple household with a few devices and want something that is simple to setup. It needs integrated wifi, integrated DHCP and It also has to be quiet and energy efficient.

 

There is much faster routers available with more advanced options in the prosumer segment for equal or less money, or if you build one yourself. They are however more complicated to set up and use.

 

If it wasn't for the geofilter I would build something more professional, ie a X86-64 PFSense box. $200 of old PC parts will wipe any sort of consumer router off the planet. Just need to use your own wifi AP.

So you’re saying, using traffic prio is pointless.  Even with a house with 25 devices ? 

 

Im on VZ gig 

[Bert]

No I am sayig that you can cure bufferbloat for download, but traffic prio has little value on download side. You simply cannot change the order in which you recieve packets from the internet.

 

If QoS is useful for 25 devices depends on how much traffic you use. As long as you do not saturate the line it won't do much for you.

 

Every line is different though. At my fiber connections ping is staying perfectly flat even though I am pulling max bandwidth. So don't need it in terms of bufferbloat. Then for sending I almost never reach 600mbit upload.

[CRarsenxL]

16 hours ago, Bert said:

No I am sayig that you can cure bufferbloat for download, but traffic prio has little value on download side. You simply cannot change the order in which you recieve packets from the internet.

 

If QoS is useful for 25 devices depends on how much traffic you use. As long as you do not saturate the line it won't do much for you.

 

Every line is different though. At my fiber connections ping is staying perfectly flat even though I am pulling max bandwidth. So don't need it in terms of bufferbloat. Then for sending I almost never reach 600mbit upload.

You’re not understanding.

 

The router will hyperlane the gaming traffic ahead of the other packets for the 24 now other devices.

[CRarsenxL]

55 minutes ago, CRarsenxL said:

You’re not understanding.

 

The router will hyperlane the gaming traffic ahead of the other packets for the 24 now other devices.

As far as queueing type,

If QoS is not used on the router, what queueing type is used? FIFO? First in first out?

 

what router gives the best queueing type of gaming on gigabit but household of 25 devices. I don’t have a lot of buffer as wel

@Bert