Development Plan

[A7Legit]

So is the jitter dampening not happening anymore?

 

I need 5 x 30k/d rounds in BO2 to post to you Adam

[Red]

I guess we'll just need to see what Iain has to say, I was really looking forward to seeing it.

[Akic]

Jitter is the biggest killer in AW.  I have 20ms pings to high jitter servers and the game runs like crap but have 50ms pings to servers with little jitter and the game runs smoothly.  Would be a shame if this feature wasn't happening.

 

I was thinking about why this happens and I feel it's to do with lag compensation. The game has to guess where you are to show smooth movements in the game, with a consistent ping its guesses can be more accurate resulting in better gameplay?

 

Can't really come up with another reason why low ping high jitter plays so bad.  Anyone have any thoughts?

[Od1n]

The moment you add any sort of artificial delay onto your connection you are by definition cheating in game and breaking the coc of the first party platforms.

It opens us into an area where the publishers and first party platforms would be well within their rights to ban the router. 

 

that certainly depends on the definition of cheating

if i cannot influence the amount of lag i add on top of my connection to smooth it out then i would not call it cheating

the ping damphening would have to be an automatic feature that you cannot customize such as in "add 20ms on top to damphen"

instead you can just activate and deactivate it, the result then purely depends on the ping stability of your connection

 

 

i had to read the ToS of XBL and PSN quite often for the XIM forum, and from what i know there isnt a single passage in which altering your connection is regarded as cheating

cause then uploading a video via Xbox One DVR while gaming would already expose me as a cheater, i increase my ping that way for a short period of time

sure you could interpret it into some ToS passages in certain ways but there isnt any clear mentioning of that its not allowed

 

if we go that way we might as well regard the Ping Assist and Geo-Filter as cheating if we interpret the following two XBL ToS sentence in a certain way

 

 

Fraudulently increase the play count or otherwise manipulate the Services in any way, including using a script and/or otherwise automated process;

 

 

Use any automated process or service (such as a bot, a spider, periodic caching of information stored by Microsoft, or metasearching) to access or use the Services, or to copy or scrape data from the Services;

both would apply to the Geo-Filter

not only do you get insight on the other players locations and "hidden" IPs to ping them but you also influence the matchmaking system by limiting the range of accessible servers and players

 

 

 

what i want to say is

just because it could be interpreted as cheating doesnt mean it clearly is cheating

it definitely depends on how such a ping-damphening feature would be implemented

sure it would be cheating if you give the customer full access on how the ping should be raised in order to smooth out the jitter (such as with a LB - lag compensation measurement)

but that is not the initial idea of the feature and certainly not what you guys should allow us to do

what we ask is an automatic feature that analyses our connection and eventually smoothens it out, say if the added ping isnt higher than +10

 

 

anyhow imo the actual definition of what is cheating and not should be extraced from the XBL/PSN ToS, thats the platform your devices are used the most on

individual perspectives on what is cheating are pretty much irrelevant

i mean tons of people regard XIM and its input way as cheating because you gain way higher precision that way as a controller player

from the ToS of both XBL/PSN its regarded as perfectly fine though, so why should i care what other people do think when all that matters is the official oppinion of the platforms that i use this device on

[Adam]

that certainly depends on the definition of cheating

if i cannot influence the amount of lag i add on top of my connection to smooth it out then i would not call it cheating

the ping damphening would have to be an automatic feature that you cannot customize such as in "add 20ms on top to damphen"

instead you can just activate and deactivate it, the result then purely depends on the ping stability of your connection

 

 

i had to read the ToS of XBL and PSN quite often for the XIM forum, and from what i know there isnt a single passage in which altering your connection is regarded as cheating

cause then uploading a video via Xbox One DVR while gaming would already expose me as a cheater, i increase my ping that way for a short period of time

sure you could interpret it into some ToS passages in certain ways but there isnt any clear mentioning of that its not allowed

 

if we go that way we might as well regard the Ping Assist and Geo-Filter as cheating if we interpret the following two XBL ToS sentence in a certain way

 

 

 

 

both would apply to the Geo-Filter

not only do you get insight on the other players locations and "hidden" IPs to ping them but you also influence the matchmaking system by limiting the range of accessible servers and players

 

 

 

what i want to say is

just because it could be interpreted as cheating doesnt mean it clearly is cheating

it definitely depends on how such a ping-damphening feature would be implemented

sure it would be cheating if you give the customer full access on how the ping should be raised in order to smooth out the jitter (such as with a lb - lag compensation measurement)

but that is not the initial idea of the feature and certainly not what you guys should allow us to do

what we ask is an automatic feature that analyses our connection and eventually smoothens it out, say if the added ping isnt higher than +10

 

 

anyhow imo the actual definition of what is cheating and not should be extraced from the XBL/PSN ToS, thats the platform your devices are used the most on

individual perspectives on what is cheating are pretty much irrelevant

i mean tons of people regard XIM and its input way as cheating because you gain way higher precision that way as a controller player

from the ToS of both XBL/PSN its regarded as perfectly fine though, so why should i care what other people do think when all that matters is the official oppinion of the platforms that i use this device on

 

Short sweet simple answer 

• Do not take any action to cause degradation of service for Microsoft or other users, including but not limited to network interference or manipulation." -XBL
• You may not cause disruption to or modify or damage any account, system, hardware, software, or network connected to or provided by SEN for any reason, including for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage in a game. -PSN

 

Adding a "delay" is network manipulation, even adding 5ms could cause issues for algorithms in certain games and change parameters.

 

That aside, the methods employed to compensate for jitter would have an adverse effect on a twitch shooter for the end user and again would fall under what the first party platforms and publishers would consider network manipulation. Jitter compensation is fine for things like voip and such like but for gaming nope.

 

 

Just to add I have edited your post to remove the product name of something

[ltr7]

Maybe Activision needs to to more effort into their lag comp code, so it actually works correctly. I feel like we the consumer spend thousands of dollars every year on better internet, faster consoles, supposedly better games and yet we get worse performance then we did from games that launched with older systems. They can't make the games smooth but they sure can whip out that DLC really fast and charge us more for a worse experience jmo.

[Dillinger]

Does the "mod" alter the game play?  Does the mod allow you to do something that the normal controller will not let you do?  Scuf = no / Niftymodz (and others) = Yes

 

If you must equate modded in physical form, then the Scuf is a copy with logical enhancements, unless you purposely sent in your OEM controller and had the Scuf features added.  Then I guess you have an OEM "modified" controller, but not one that alters the game

 

The bottom line:  If you equate things done for comfort or ease of use as "modding" then we have different definitions of the word and it wasn't worth the discussion.

[Dillinger]

Maybe Activision needs to to more effort into their lag comp code, so it actually works correctly. I feel like we the consumer spend thousands of dollars every year on better internet, faster consoles, supposedly better games and yet we get worse performance then we did from games that launched with older systems. They can't make the games smooth but they sure can whip out that DLC really fast and charge us more for a worse experience jmo.

 

First off, good point.  I am not even going to pretend to understand Lag Comp, but I do think it's amazing that the same problems keep happening while everything else in the world keeps advancing.  Our internet speeds are much faster, on average, than they were even 5 years ago.  But current games don't seem to be exponentially better than previous versions, even though every other piece of equipment we are using to play them (Avg connection speeds, specialize routers, "gaming" monitors, headphones, controllers) have made numerous improvements.

[Adam]

First off, good point.  I am not even going to pretend to understand Lag Comp, but I do think it's amazing that the same problems keep happening while everything else in the world keeps advancing.  Our internet speeds are much faster, on average, than they were even 5 years ago.  But current games don't seem to be exponentially better than previous versions, even though every other piece of equipment we are using to play them (Avg connection speeds, specialize routers, "gaming" monitors, headphones, controllers) have made numerous improvements.

 

Nope internet "speeds" are the same basically, what you mean is bandwidth has increased, this has no effect on gaming as a game like cod ( or any online game for that matter) uses a tiny fraction of your bandwidth. This is because data is transmitted via packets these are tiny.

[Dillinger]

Nope internet "speeds" are the same basically, what you mean is bandwidth has increased, this has no effect on gaming as a game like cod ( or any online game for that matter) uses a tiny fraction of your bandwidth. This is because data is transmitted via packets these are tiny.

 

I guess my terminology isn't right.  From my perspective it seems like more and more people now have access to "faster" and faster internet speeds (with all the caveats and * and really tiny fine print) like Fios, FTTC and some other services.  Where as before you might have a couple of options, but one was usually the local/mega phone company and one was usually the competing mega cable company.

 

But, terminology aside, everything has gotten better and more efficient/effective - Why do we still have so many Wanted style bullet deaths and bad hit detection?  Is balancing of hit detection really an insane level of work?  I honestly don't know and am merely asking out of curiosity.

 

Thanks for the clarification Adam!

[Red]

Why not just implement it for admins only, to test how big of a change it makes instead of completely discontinuing it

[PuppetMaster]

Why not just implement it for admins only, to test how big of a change it makes instead of completely discontinuing it

They would still run the risk of the router being banned.

[gkontos10]

When that update comes out?

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Very very soon

[gkontos10]

Hehehe ok thanks :-)

[Vance]

Netduma_Iain, you know very very soon.....means today.

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

have you not seen the announcement thread

[Vance]

Netduma_Iain, I have now, thank you Sir!

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Hope you enjoy mate

[Red]

They would still run the risk of the router being banned.

I highly doubt they'll bother with 2-3 people adding 3ms to their ping for a legitimate reason. You aren't abusing it by adding 200ms to yourself.

 

Having it as an opt-in would mean users know the risks involved.

[fuzzy clam]

From a business stand point anything that would put netduma on the out's with,SH,IW and treyarch is a very bad idea.They are a new business just starting out and doing quit well,the last thing they would want to do is have their product banned.I love the idea of what you guys are talking about but it's a BEEEEEP poor move from a business stand point.

 

If you piss of the dev's of COD and they bitch about it (anything from banning to a lawsuit) and your product is mainly used for COD,well let'd just call a spade a spade...your company is BEEEEEEP

[Adam]

I highly doubt they'll bother with 2-3 people adding 3ms to their ping for a legitimate reason. You aren't abusing it by adding 200ms to yourself.

 

Having it as an opt-in would mean users know the risks involved.

 

Without being rude . it isn't going to happen so there really is no point discussing it further.

[XxxCALDERAxxX]

nuff said

[abc123]

nuff said

 

shhhh not everyone knows about me, I brought marshmallows and you are going to ruin it

[Buckeye Purple]

hello

 

Was wondering why this router is capped @120mb, i'm paying for 150mb virgin fibre and would very much like to get speeds i'm paying for.