SQM?

[djhixson88]

I own an XR1000 and was curious if this routers traffic prioritization is SQM (Smart Queue Management) or is that something separate. 

[Newfie]

I suppose similar would be one way of putting it however it boils down to algorithms and where cake or fq CoDel are quite cpu intensive the QoS on Duma is much friendlier to hardware and works just as well if not better than others that use SQM as it boils down to how it’s implemented. 
 

When you see a router advertise SQM not all are equal through my findings of trying various routers. Most tend to have a very basic QoS where you simply set the bandwidth and that’s it and you hope it works. For example Unifi use SQM and it fq CoDel but it’s not as good as Duma for controlling network traffic and latency. 
Another example is the R2 can handle a good throughput with QoS on where other similar type routers that use other known SQM methods limit the throughput due to restraints of the CPU handling. 

[djhixson88]

18 hours ago, Newfie said:

I suppose similar would be one way of putting it however it boils down to algorithms and where cake or fq CoDel are quite cpu intensive the QoS on Duma is much friendlier to hardware and works just as well if not better than others that use SQM as it boils down to how it’s implemented. 
 

When you see a router advertise SQM not all are equal through my findings of trying various routers. Most tend to have a very basic QoS where you simply set the bandwidth and that’s it and you hope it works. For example Unifi use SQM and it fq CoDel but it’s not as good as Duma for controlling network traffic and latency. 
Another example is the R2 can handle a good throughput with QoS on where other similar type routers that use other known SQM methods limit the throughput due to restraints of the CPU handling. 

Nice! Thank you, pretty much what I was looking for. Would you say the XR1000 is on par with the R2 in that regard?

[XSXS]

19 hours ago, Newfie said:

I suppose similar would be one way of putting it however it boils down to algorithms and where cake or fq CoDel are quite cpu intensive the QoS on Duma is much friendlier to hardware and works just as well if not better than others that use SQM as it boils down to how it’s implemented. 
 

When you see a router advertise SQM not all are equal through my findings of trying various routers. Most tend to have a very basic QoS where you simply set the bandwidth and that’s it and you hope it works. For example Unifi use SQM and it fq CoDel but it’s not as good as Duma for controlling network traffic and latency. 
Another example is the R2 can handle a good throughput with QoS on where other similar type routers that use other known SQM methods limit the throughput due to restraints of the CPU handling. 

I have an ER4, the SQM works very well. It has alot of tweaks most i am unfamiliar with and not much detail information on line that I could find.

I am thinking on making it my main router again and is the xr1000 as an AP. 

[Newfie]

3 hours ago, djhixson88 said:

Nice! Thank you, pretty much what I was looking for. Would you say the XR1000 is on par with the R2 in that regard?

I don’t own the XR1000 but I’ve not seen any reports suggesting they both differ performance wise so both should be on par.

[Newfie]

4 hours ago, XSXS said:

I have an ER4, the SQM works very well. It has alot of tweaks most i am unfamiliar with and not much detail information on line that I could find.

I am thinking on making it my main router again and is the xr1000 as an AP. 

Different line, the new style Unifi are pushing towards don’t offer much in the way of control compared to the edge series routers. I think you get roughly 200mbps throughput with smart queues on with the ER4 as it’s just a 1000mhz processor all be it quad.

The edge router X is the same CPU as the R2, in fact they are roughly the same but that’s restricted even more than your ER4 when Smart queues is on. 
Edge series offers a lot, it’s getting old but as you say your unfamiliar with settings and there is the problem. For a market that’s based on home users as we move forward the end user wants a simple and easy way controlling their network. I’m guessing you find the settings in Duma far easier to understand which is the way forward. 
Duma is quite friendly when it comes to using APs, not so on the new Unifi stuff where if you used the XR as an AP on the UDM line you loss many of the benefits. Duma on the other hand treats all APs the same which is great and does not lock you down. Don’t forget with smart queues on the bottleneck using the ER4 with a WiFi 6 AP will really show its self regarding throughput.

One benefit though while no routers are perfect Duma does cater for gamers and the understanding that the end users wants a no fuss easy to use interface where you don’t need to be a network pro to get great results. The auto setup in congestion control for example is a great way forward and a very clever way of making life easier. Click a button and let it do the work for you and yet with all the features running the network happily works away with no hint of constraints. 

 

 

[XSXS]

12 hours ago, Newfie said:

Different line, the new style Unifi are pushing towards don’t offer much in the way of control compared to the edge series routers. I think you get roughly 200mbps throughput with smart queues on with the ER4 as it’s just a 1000mhz processor all be it quad.

The edge router X is the same CPU as the R2, in fact they are roughly the same but that’s restricted even more than your ER4 when Smart queues is on. 
Edge series offers a lot, it’s getting old but as you say your unfamiliar with settings and there is the problem. For a market that’s based on home users as we move forward the end user wants a simple and easy way controlling their network. I’m guessing you find the settings in Duma far easier to understand which is the way forward. 
Duma is quite friendly when it comes to using APs, not so on the new Unifi stuff where if you used the XR as an AP on the UDM line you loss many of the benefits. Duma on the other hand treats all APs the same which is great and does not lock you down. Don’t forget with smart queues on the bottleneck using the ER4 with a WiFi 6 AP will really show its self regarding throughput.

One benefit though while no routers are perfect Duma does cater for gamers and the understanding that the end users wants a no fuss easy to use interface where you don’t need to be a network pro to get great results. The auto setup in congestion control for example is a great way forward and a very clever way of making life easier. Click a button and let it do the work for you and yet with all the features running the network happily works away with no hint of constraints. 

 

 

Hmm 200mbps throughput? Do you mean SQM won't work with higher bandwidth? 

I am pretty sure they fixed that where hardware offloading works now with SQM enabled at least on the ER4 up to 1gig 

For the part i understand the basic and advanced SQM settings. More or less referring to if i wanted to prioritize a devices. 

Yeah i like the Duma OS but just seems buggy from the get go. Qos doesn't work with ipv6 or vlan tagging, etc. 

That's a different thread though.. 

Anyway, How does duma os do a better job than sqm fqcodel and cake? 

I read cake is the best so is duma os qos better than cake? 

Also how does duma qos work since congestion control doesn't work with vlan tagging but i can prioritize a device? 

I have 1gig fios so when i run the auto set up it recommends my sliders at 100%. 

Thank you 

 

 

 

[Newfie]

Let me show you the UDM at work using FQ CoDel. Having cake or FQ CoDel means nothing unless it’s working correctly and yes there are bugs in Duma but they will get sorted on the NG side I hope. Any type of QoS must be implemented well but where Duma will acknowledge an issue you try getting Unifi to do the same. I’m posting about this issue for at least 2 previous firmwares and not one comment on their support forum.
Notice it does not work on the upload and after several painful hours I’ve managed to get the upload to work but the download now has the issues. If I was to plug the R2 in, can’t on the UDM as there is no DMZ so you run into NAT issues I get a perfect latency connection. 
this vid is on their support forum and has been totally ignored. 
now unfortunately when it comes to routers none are perfect, they all have their faults but it then boils down to support. In your case you could raise the issue direct with NG support to egg them on, some times they listen and will work with you. 
Regarding the throughput on the ER4 no people still complained and saw poor results, you could whip it on and try it to see what you get then do a little video as I’m always interested to see how different routers perform.

on a gig line you really should not require QoS on unless you have some huge household requirements. At that point you just hope your isp has great peering so you enjoy a nice connection. Auto congestion setting at 100% is probably correct as it’s not finding an issue.
 

 

 

[djhixson88]

I just want better internet  lol I have to throttle my download all the way down to 97mbps to get decent bufferbloat scores

 

Also, random wifi question, long or short preamble? 

 

 

[Newfie]

19 minutes ago, djhixson88 said:

I just want better internet  lol I have to throttle my download all the way down to 97mbps to get decent bufferbloat scores

 

Also, random wifi question, long or short preamble? 

 

 

That depends on the environment and devices. Long is normally the default for compatibility for older devices. 

How are you testing your line?
 

[Bert]

At 1Gbit up and down you should switch off QoS entirely unless you use a huge amount of bandwidth.

 

QoS is the thing that is probably least understood by gamers but it does for sure sell routers. If you are not reaching the maximum of your connection then there is no packets stuck in the queue and QoS will not do anything for you.

 

Also say you have 500mbit. You go testing bufferbloat, adjust it to 400mbit. Great but if you are using the net by yourself and your average traffic use while gaming is 1mbit instead of downloading stuff, here QoS will again do nothing for you.

 

QoS actually slows down your traffic in terms of latency. Generally this little bit of latency is accepted by getting constant performance in return. A household with kids going off a 100/10 connection or so needs QoS but not at 1000/1000.

 

And yes for 1Gbit SQM you need a lot of CPU power. As far as I know only x86-64 routers are capable of doing this at this present time.

[Newfie]

12 minutes ago, Bert said:

At 1Gbit up and down you should switch off QoS entirely unless you use a huge amount of bandwidth.

 

QoS is the thing that is probably least understood by gamers but it does for sure sell routers. If you are not reaching the maximum of your connection then there is no packets stuck in the queue and QoS will not do anything for you.

 

Also say you have 500mbit. You go testing bufferbloat, adjust it to 400mbit. Great but if you are using the net by yourself and your average traffic use while gaming is 1mbit instead of downloading stuff, here QoS will again do nothing for you.

 

QoS actually slows down your traffic in terms of latency. Generally this little bit of latency is accepted by getting constant performance in return. A household with kids going off a 100/10 connection or so needs QoS but not at 1000/1000.

 

And yes for 1Gbit SQM you need a lot of CPU power. As far as I know only x86-64 routers are capable of doing this at this present time.

I think Netduma quote around the 350 mark that above does not require QoS depending on the network, Unifi quote 300, in fact they have it set on by default at 300 or below on the UDM range so you need to disable it if you don’t wish to use it. 
my rather low 57DL and 11UL benefits from it which is what it should be doing if it works correctly. 

[XSXS]

Newfie

When i had my er4 connected i was able to get the same bandwidth (over 900M) with SQM enabled or disabled. 

 

Bert, 

Yeah would think so wouldn't you? I mean 1gig bandwidth and you shouldn't have any problems, but that's not the case. 

For the past few years i have had enough bandwidth that i shouldn't have to worry about qos. However all my testing shows other wise, better buffer bloat rating, more stable ping using ping plotter even with no congestion and more importantly better game connections.

For example i can turn off SQM on the ER4 and immediately do worse in COD. My KDR decreases over time. I enable SQM and immediately do better and my KDR goes up. I have tried this test several times with the same result and over several games. 

Also happens with my r7000, and 7800 when i used them. 

I have yet to try this with The xr1000 since qos doesn't work yet with vlan tagging. 

I believe with the net coding in modern online gaming, faster is not better but a consistent ping is. 

I think a lot of knowledgeable networking guys think the same as you thinking high bandwidth don't need qos but from my experience it does for gaming. 

 

[Newfie]

To be fair to Bert I’ve seen some really awful fibre connections in the US where base pings were really poor. That boils down to the isp and that maybe why some try to source a way of finding a better connection but of course you can’t really sort out issues when the connection is poor to start with but if it helps to some extent that’s good news.

If you post a vid it would be great showing the ER4 SQM. Always nice to compare when you have time to do so. 

[djhixson88]

4 hours ago, Newfie said:

That depends on the environment and devices. Long is normally the default for compatibility for older devices. 

How are you testing your line?
 

I'm not really testing, I just was curious if there's a real benefit to short over long

[Newfie]

4 hours ago, djhixson88 said:

I'm not really testing, I just was curious if there's a real benefit to short over long

If you don’t have 802.11b devices I would try short, you may not notice any difference though. 

[djhixson88]

15 hours ago, Newfie said:

If you don’t have 802.11b devices I would try short, you may not notice any difference though. 

I tried it prior to asking, and had an issue where my 5G band randomly stopped working. I thought it was related to that but it happened again when I messed with the guest network, but that time everything connected on it's own. 

[Newfie]

10 hours ago, djhixson88 said:

I tried it prior to asking, and had an issue where my 5G band randomly stopped working. I thought it was related to that but it happened again when I messed with the guest network, but that time everything connected on it's own. 

That may not be related to preamble. What width is tour 5Ghz set you ie 80Mhz?

don’t tick the 160Mhz, that will cause devices to drop that don’t support it. Run a WiFi scanner to see if the 5Ghz drops or is not showing when the problem cops up. 

[djhixson88]

12 hours ago, Newfie said:

That may not be related to preamble. What width is tour 5Ghz set you ie 80Mhz?

don’t tick the 160Mhz, that will cause devices to drop that don’t support it. Run a WiFi scanner to see if the 5Ghz drops or is not showing when the problem cops up. 

It’s set to whatever the max is. It doesn’t show as MHz. 4330 I believe 

[djhixson88]

12 hours ago, Newfie said:

That may not be related to preamble. What width is tour 5Ghz set you ie 80Mhz?

don’t tick the 160Mhz, that will cause devices to drop that don’t support it. Run a WiFi scanner to see if the 5Ghz drops or is not showing when the problem cops up. 

I just set it to one step below which I presume is 80mhz and set both Wi-Fi bands back to short preamble and rebooted. Hopefully it works well. 

[Newfie]

59 minutes ago, djhixson88 said:

I just set it to one step below which I presume is 80mhz and set both Wi-Fi bands back to short preamble and rebooted. Hopefully it works well. 

Ah sorry I looked at your profile and saw you had the XR500, that’s got the tick box but yes I believe you had it set to 160Mhz. Fingers crossed that’s fixed it.

[djhixson88]

30 minutes ago, Newfie said:

Ah sorry I looked at your profile and saw you had the XR500, that’s got the tick box but yes I believe you had it set to 160Mhz. Fingers crossed that’s fixed it.

I really should update that lol 

[Martdog23]

On 8/26/2021 at 3:52 PM, Bert said:

At 1Gbit up and down you should switch off QoS entirely unless you use a huge amount of bandwidth.

 

QoS is the thing that is probably least understood by gamers but it does for sure sell routers. If you are not reaching the maximum of your connection then there is no packets stuck in the queue and QoS will not do anything for you.

 

Also say you have 500mbit. You go testing bufferbloat, adjust it to 400mbit. Great but if you are using the net by yourself and your average traffic use while gaming is 1mbit instead of downloading stuff, here QoS will again do nothing for you.

 

QoS actually slows down your traffic in terms of latency. Generally this little bit of latency is accepted by getting constant performance in return. A household with kids going off a 100/10 connection or so needs QoS but not at 1000/1000.

 

And yes for 1Gbit SQM you need a lot of CPU power. As far as I know only x86-64 routers are capable of doing this at this present time.

This is great advice, I've been looking for feedback regarding speeds similar to this. Cable internet is the worst when it comes to limiting upload bandwith. I currently have 950 down and 24 up, so I'm assuming I should probably utilize my QOS. I've tinkered with a lot of things and totally see where the QOS will add latency sometimes.

[Netduma Fraser]

28 minutes ago, Martdog23 said:

This is great advice, I've been looking for feedback regarding speeds similar to this. Cable internet is the worst when it comes to limiting upload bandwith. I currently have 950 down and 24 up, so I'm assuming I should probably utilize my QOS. I've tinkered with a lot of things and totally see where the QOS will add latency sometimes.

Would definitely recommend utilizing it for Upload at the very least as the speeds are low but if you're a frequent downloaded then utilize it for Download as well

[Martdog23]

Sorry to just now be getting back on this @Netduma Fraser, i see people on the internet suggest not lowering Upload due to lag compensation? Can you elaborate more on why to or not to lower the upload, please.