BO3 Lag Compensation - Xbox One

[Alex]

Anyone else feel like the lag comp in BO3 on Xbox One is really high? I ping most of my games around 30ms and I just die instantly after getting 4 hit markers. It's really aggravating. Anyone experiencing the same? 

[PharmDawgg]

Yeah I call it the WTF syndrome. Activision/Blizzard/Demonware servers are crap.  What we are experiencing on our end is not what our opponent is experiencing on their end.  It seems like time to kill > time to die.

[Alex]

Unreal...guys on 3 bar connections lagging everywhere on the map...can't kill any of them and they are constantly 30-10 and I can barely break even most matches now. It's been incredibly bad the last few days. I'm sure some of it has to do with double xp weekend, but this is so maddening. Makes me want to throw my controller. 

[Sir_smooch]

Unreal...guys on 3 bar connections lagging everywhere on the map...can't kill any of them and they are constantly 30-10 and I can barely break even most matches now. It's been incredibly bad the last few days. I'm sure some of it has to do with double xp weekend, but this is so maddening. Makes me want to throw my controller.

 

Don't give em the satisfaction dude, plus ur only left with that sickening feeling of having to replace ur pad when the rage dies down!

[kevo]

i made a video hoping the netduma guys will add some feature to counter this i guess not im tired of explaining the bullshit thats happening i just deal with the bs now if i shoot first and die o well if my bullets dont register o well theres no fix it the netduma doesnt work for me like it used to so i gave up using it. im not trying to bash the product but im not having a great time at all since i first brought the router now my experience is back to crap so i just use my nighthawk and get the same gameplay i would with the netduma

[JConnor]

I did an interesting experiment for you all:

 

I live in the U.S., but I put my digital home location in the UK, right over the London, server.

 

My ping was 130-140ms, but I came in the top second of the lobby playing KC.

 

That shouldn't happen. I was not warping around the screen... On my end... And it felt nearly the same as playing on a (much closer) domestic server like Kansas City, Missouri, or Chicago. So, there is no more doubt whatever kind of algorithm they are using heavily favors players with poor connections over good ones. The thing to also note is I have zero jitter on all of my ISP tests, so this is probably why I wasn't warping around the screen (on my end). It's when you have long distances + jitter then you see players warping around the screen who are almost impossible to kill.

 

I'm almost tempted to play on the L.A, S.F, or Seattle servers just because those are a lot closer, but not "too close" to where I am. What the hell kind of netcode requires this???

[Alex]

I did an interesting experiment for you all:

 

I live in the U.S., but I put my digital home location in the UK, right over the London, server.

 

My ping was 130-140ms, but I came in the top second of the lobby playing KC.

 

That shouldn't happen. I was not warping around the screen... On my end... And it felt nearly the same as playing on a (much closer) domestic server like Kansas City, Missouri, or Chicago. So, there is no more doubt whatever kind of algorithm they are using heavily favors players with poor connections over good ones. The thing to also note is I have zero jitter on all of my ISP tests, so this is probably why I wasn't warping around the screen (on my end). It's when you have long distances + jitter then you see players warping around the screen who are almost impossible to kill.

 

I'm almost tempted to play on the L.A, S.F, or Seattle servers just because those are a lot closer, but not "too close" to where I am. What the hell kind of netcode requires this???

Interesting! I may have to experiment with this. It's crazy though that I can ping a server at 30ms (good for me) and still be a half second behind.

[Ian88]

Awwww man tell me about it! I've just had to switch my game off because of this bs! I'm absolutely.. Fkin sick! Of dying before I've seen the enemy, I have no time to react! Also it feels as thought target assist pulls your aim to where the enemy has been instead of where they are! So my aim is always slightly to the left or right.. I thought it was starting to settle down, then as soon as double xp started its fkin terrible! I've got absolutely no urge to play again that's how much it's sickened me.. Not just that.. But friends not being able to join lobbies, not being able to find games once they are, score streak bugs, perk bugs, awwww I've had enough!! Rant over

[JConnor]

In my opinion, I think a big part of it is the damn flinching we have in the game.

 

Granted, they recently toned recoil down (at the behest of the pros no doubt), but I don't know how many times I've seen an enemy, pulled the trigger first, started to get hit markers, they return fire and my aim jumps up and they kill me. It may be "a part of the game that requires skill to manage", but I feel for a console-based shooter it's too much. It's like the game is designed for a mouse that can easily counter the flinch, but players are forced to use analog sticks which are far less accurate.

 

There are also reports on the official (shill) forums of people experiencing very strange things since the patch e.g. shooting enemies and getting NO hitmarkers; it's like they are firing phantom bullets because they appear to go right through them; RAPS not being able to be destroyed with small arms fire anymore -- This happened to me; I was shooting at an enemy RAPS and just like shooting a player with phantom bullets, nothing happened; no hit markers, nothing -- The list goes on.

 

My K/D -- not that it means anything in the real world -- Has dropped to a 0.5. Yeah, I'll admit it. But the point is before this update it was at least a 1.2 -- Not great, but good enough to hold my own against the kids. Now, it's not even fun playing. And I know it's not me, obviously. Meaning, I've been playing the exact same way I did before this update, so that is the only variable. If they are trying to combat throttling as well as please the pros, this game is going to be a huge mess from here on out. I like this game. It's better than Ghosts, BO2 and AW by miles, but if they keep "tweaking" the game like this I am going to have to stop playing, too. This is just the recent patch issues, let alone the constant battle we have every year with the age old engine and it's backwards-ass netcode that gives people with 100ms ping an advantage over those with 30ms! Grrrrr....

[Netduma Fraser]

Do keep in mind if you felt it specifically this weekend that Double XP weekends always play a bit worse due to the amount of players on the servers

[JConnor]

The XB1 servers are just bad in general, no matter what time people are playing.

 

I just got off and was playing TDM and about more than HALF of the players all had three, yellow bar "pings". 

 

That's sad because it means BO3 is dying off faster on XB1 due to less XB1's being sold, and two, it once again proves how bad the MM is in CoD when it allows people with foreign names, clan tags and emblems e.g Mexican Flag to play on a Mid-Western server located closer to Canada, than anybody else in the game.

[secretface]

I'm getting high pings to server I used to get low ping to. Its weird. I also tried putting my home in england but after 20 min of waiting gave up. It would not even try and pick up a lobby/server there. I too for the last week or so have been behind just a sec or two. I pitch a tent and camp my ass off sorry but tis the only way to come out positive and piss people off at the same time. What is really aggravating though is that every 20th game or so the hit detection is on and I can come out of my tent and move, it gives me hope only to be smashed to the floor the next game. uhg. I played for an hr last week just modem to xbox no routers anywhere and it played very well. might have to try that again. 

[corrosiveguy]

I'm getting high pings to server I used to get low ping to. Its weird. I also tried putting my home in england but after 20 min of waiting gave up. It would not even try and pick up a lobby/server there. I too for the last week or so have been behind just a sec or two. I pitch a tent and camp my ass off sorry but tis the only way to come out positive and piss people off at the same time. What is really aggravating though is that every 20th game or so the hit detection is on and I can come out of my tent and move, it gives me hope only to be smashed to the floor the next game. uhg. I played for an hr last week just modem to xbox no routers anywhere and it played very well. might have to try that again. 

 

 

The same.

 

They have done something to alter it. I could find dedicated servers close to me with 30-40ms ping and it would play perfect. But in the last week or so I am a second or two behind again even on dedicated servers. And my ping will be 65-90ms. I can't find a 30ms game anymore.. I thought it was my ISP, not so much. I am decent player who averages 2.00 KD usually. But in the last week it's been 1.15-1.30 KD. We have the best technology available these days and it seemed like the older CODs played much better.

[Netduma Iain]

We are going to do many experiments in the near future. But if you want the headline about lag it is this:

 

"Ignore what you see on the screen, if the opponent is not an idiot would he have killed you?"

 

If you 1) Have a low ping lobby 2) Ask yourself that after BS moments

 

You'll notice that the BS goes away. What you are seeing is rendering issues because the high ping players actions take a while for them to be shown on your screen. But if you ignore what you see and just assume he's not an idiot then it will explain itself. I will do in depth blogs and videos very soon. But for a quick example see this video at around 1:08, you'll notice I got shot round a wall. However unless the guy is clueless you have to assume on his screen he was shooting me. The key is that low ping players *always* have the advantage. 

 

Technically a short overview of the issue. At a certain tick rate, meaning every so many milliseconds you will send out the commands you have done. Commands will be run, shoot, look, etc. The server will also be sending everyone elses commands to you (after it made a verdict to determine they haven't died or done something impossible). Now if your command reaches the server before your opponent the server who has the final verdict will give it to you.

 

With the lag issues you mention, the laggier player has sent a command. It takes a while to reach the server. The server rewinds time on its version of the world to the ping of the laggy player and see's if what they were doing makes sesne. I.e. were they shooting a person when time is rewound. If so it lets them get the kill and sends it to you. Problem is by the time you see it you get these WTF moments? *BUT* if you think to yourself if this guy wasn't an idiot is there a chance he was shooting me then you'll find in nearly all instances he was.

 

Trust me I know it's hard to deal with but try ignore what you see and think more what would a player in that position be doing? 

As I said blog, videos, etc coming soon. 

[Netduma Iain]

i made a video hoping the netduma guys will add some feature to counter this i guess not im tired of explaining the bullshit thats happening i just deal with the bs now if i shoot first and die o well if my bullets dont register o well theres no fix it the netduma doesnt work for me like it used to so i gave up using it. im not trying to bash the product but im not having a great time at all since i first brought the router now my experience is back to crap so i just use my nighthawk and get the same gameplay i would with the netduma

 

Hi Kevo, see above for a short explanation on the issues. We will go further in depth soon. I've been talking with a veteran coder of over 20 years who has worked at Valve and other top companies to get my info. So I hope you'll enjoy that.

 

On putting the nighthawk back in, from a technical point of view that is completely nonsensical. Nearly all routers run the same base firmware so if you switch off every feature of a Netduma and you're wired you will experience the same thing. However if you use the ND clearly the gameplay will be much better and even you know that I believe. The two main gaming features CC & GF make a huge difference its incomparable. I'd never even consider not using a GF. 

 

Happy holidays brother, and look out for new firmwares coming soon and the videos which I think you'll enjoy. 

[wrathoftank]

We are going to do many experiments in the near future. But if you want the headline about lag it is this:

 

"Ignore what you see on the screen, if the opponent is not an idiot would he have killed you?"

 

If you 1) Have a low ping lobby 2) Ask yourself that after BS moments

 

You'll notice that the BS goes away. What you are seeing is rendering issues because the high ping players actions take a while for them to be shown on your screen. But if you ignore what you see and just assume he's not an idiot then it will explain itself. I will do in depth blogs and videos very soon. But for a quick example see this video at around 1:08, you'll notice I got shot round a wall. However unless the guy is clueless you have to assume on his screen he was shooting me. The key is that low ping players *always* have the advantage. 

 

Technically a short overview of the issue. At a certain tick rate, meaning every so many milliseconds you will send out the commands you have done. Commands will be run, shoot, look, etc. The server will also be sending everyone elses commands to you (after it made a verdict to determine they haven't died or done something impossible). Now if your command reaches the server before your opponent the server who has the final verdict will give it to you.

 

With the lag issues you mention, the laggier player has sent a command. It takes a while to reach the server. The server rewinds time on its version of the world to the ping of the laggy player and see's if what they were doing makes sesne. I.e. were they shooting a person when time is rewound. If so it lets them get the kill and sends it to you. Problem is by the time you see it you get these WTF moments? *BUT* if you think to yourself if this guy wasn't an idiot is there a chance he was shooting me then you'll find in nearly all instances he was.

 

Trust me I know it's hard to deal with but try ignore what you see and think more what would a player in that position be doing? 

As I said blog, videos, etc coming soon. 

The problem is that certain games don't do a very good job of communicating information that should be right in front of you, and I think over compensate.  This leads to deaths from people that were never even on your screen, but on there screen it was an easy kill.  

 

For some reason with COD this seems to be a major issue especially when someone is unfortunate enough to pull host.  I did an experiment back in MW3 where I played 25 games with host using the same class every time, then I throttled my connection so I wouldn't pull host and used the same class 25 more times.  I would leave each game just before the end so that I could verify whether or not I was host, if it said "host migration" I knew I was host.  Can't remember the exact numbers, but my K/D, W/L, SPM all dramatically improved when I wasn't host.  The difference was very obvious, if I was host I would never take damage I would just die, but if I wasn't host I would notice myself taking damage and  be able to react.  I quit out of hundreds of games back in the day when I'd realized I was host, and without fail it would always say "host migration".  I'm not sure if that is still the case with COD because I haven't pulled host since BO2.

 

I've never experienced this with any other game series either.

[JConnor]

 

Technically a short overview of the issue. At a certain tick rate, meaning every so many milliseconds you will send out the commands you have done. Commands will be run, shoot, look, etc. The server will also be sending everyone elses commands to you (after it made a verdict to determine they haven't died or done something impossible). Now if your command reaches the server before your opponent the server who has the final verdict will give it to you.

 

With the lag issues you mention, the laggier player has sent a command. It takes a while to reach the server. The server rewinds time on its version of the world to the ping of the laggy player and see's if what they were doing makes sesne. I.e. were they shooting a person when time is rewound. If so it lets them get the kill and sends it to you. Problem is by the time you see it you get these WTF moments? *BUT* if you think to yourself if this guy wasn't an idiot is there a chance he was shooting me then you'll find in nearly all instances he was.

 

Trust me I know it's hard to deal with but try ignore what you see and think more what would a player in that position be doing? 

As I said blog, videos, etc coming soon. 

 

It's ironic you mention tick rates because both BF4 and now R6:Siege both had to up (30->60) their tick rates because there were too many WTF? moments going on to be considered playable. I even brought this up last year on the official Activision/ AW forums and had a lot of support behind me, but of course, Activision did nothing. It may not be a necessity, but it is one of those many factors they could at least make an effort to try and improve their online gaming experience for their paying customers.

 

Also, I can't speak for everybody, but I know the basics of latency and how server / clients network interaction works.

 

The problem with CoD is there appears to be *something* "off" in how they prioritize packets, process packets, etc? On another thread, we are discussing how inconsistent individual matches are even with the same people in the lobby, game after game. Why can one person go 34-17 on match, then 17-34 the next using the same weapon(s), tactics and map knowledge?

 

Why is it if two people are out in the open, one fires, gets hit markers, but the other guy kills the first one with what appears to be one shot? You'll probably say the second guy always fired first, but that's not what a lot of us are experiencing when we look at the Kill Cams... Which are accurate by the way. There is this myth Drift0r put out that they are not, but they because all they are vector data recreations using the game's assets (maps, models) based on past data sent to it. 

 

There is just too many moving parts to say conclusively there is nothing "wrong" with how CoD's netcode works, but there is such a thing as a gut feeling which far too many players across the internet have mentioned for it to be a mass delusion, IMO.

 

If you are good at the game... You are good at the game. If you're performance drops, it's most likely going to be because of a number of factors outside the game itself, but herein lies the rub: Most people don't have radical changes to their connections, latency, etc. from one match to the next. Even if you are trying out a new weapon, you are going to quickly adapt and maybe even go back to the one(s) you are good at if you are getting stomped. You may not get a 2:1 K/D, but it won't be the reverse 1:2 K/D I used in my example. Countless people on this and other forums have experienced this exact scenario for their not to be something "inside" the game that is effecting player performance match to match, IMHO.

 

It's no secret Activision fired (or he quit) the lead netcode programmer prior to MW3's release. This is when it all went down hill (some can argue BO, etc., but around this time is when CoD became more "random" for a lot of people) compared to previous CoD releases. I'm going to ignore the conspiracy theories Activision puts in code to randomize the outcome of gun battles to keep people playing, but I do believe the netcode itself may be trying to overcompensate for players with poor connections (latency, jitter) which may be giving them an unfair advantage, perhaps?

 

Many of us Netduma users are now throttling our upload using the CC and getting better results. That tells me something is "wrong" with how this game's netcode is coded because it should be the exact opposite and is the exact opposite in other games. If we try and use the same connection techniques in other games, we are going to get owned and that is how it should be. So, this is why a lot of us can't just "look past" the game play and see to the other side of what may be going on from a technical stand point because everything many of us are experiencing is counter-intuitive to how most other games behave.

 

That said, I look forward to the videos and blogs and fully support what you guys are doing here. What you have done is brought a staple feature of PC gaming to the console which has improved many of our online gaming experiences even if it isn't as good as it should be, and... That's not your fault because it's the game (CoD) itself that is jacked up and not functioning normally, or in a logical manner, IMO.

[Xacebop]

I bought this game for Xbox one already owned it on ps4 just to test the games hit ditection side by side. It is my personal opinion that the problems you (we) are experiencing are on activisions side of things. I've tested every setting imaginable with the netduma on multiple networks and consoles, I can have 10 ms ping to a server 2 blocks away and get the problems you've described. What frustrates me the most is I will have the game of my life which feels like I'm playing on lan servers 1000 miles away, and the very next game, same host same ping same everything get womped with bad hit ditection.

 

What pisses me off is you don't actually lag or feel like your lagging until you see the killcam of you dying, looking at your ping and packet loss and notice nothing out of the ordinary and still feels somethings wrong.

[Reconnected]

don't think they will ever get rid of lag comp, it's a fundamental part of the game.

[Netduma Iain]

I understand what you're saying guys. I really do, the reason I started this company is I couldn't handle the rage in Halo 3.

 

I'm going to refrain from posting on the subject further but trust me if you have low ping you do have  the advantage every time. There maybe occasional WTF moments even in low ping but in general you have the advantage over high ping opponents. I will demonstrate very soon using netem, a tool that allows you to mimic network connections e.g. high ping, packet loss, etc . 

[secretface]

I understand what you're saying guys. I really do, the reason I started this company is I couldn't handle the rage in Halo 3.

 

I'm going to refrain from posting on the subject further but trust me if you have low ping you do have  the advantage every time. There maybe occasional WTF moments even in low ping but in general you have the advantage over high ping opponents. I will demonstrate very soon using netem, a tool that allows you to mimic network connections e.g. high ping, packet loss, etc . 

I have whole matches of dump bullets into someone to be shot once? I don't see me having any advantage.This goes on for days sometimes. 

[corrosiveguy]

The problem is that certain games don't do a very good job of communicating information that should be right in front of you, and I think over compensate.  This leads to deaths from people that were never even on your screen, but on there screen it was an easy kill.  

 

For some reason with COD this seems to be a major issue especially when someone is unfortunate enough to pull host.  I did an experiment back in MW3 where I played 25 games with host using the same class every time, then I throttled my connection so I wouldn't pull host and used the same class 25 more times.  I would leave each game just before the end so that I could verify whether or not I was host, if it said "host migration" I knew I was host.  Can't remember the exact numbers, but my K/D, W/L, SPM all dramatically improved when I wasn't host.  The difference was very obvious, if I was host I would never take damage I would just die, but if I wasn't host I would notice myself taking damage and  be able to react.  I quit out of hundreds of games back in the day when I'd realized I was host, and without fail it would always say "host migration".  I'm not sure if that is still the case with COD because I haven't pulled host since BO2.

 

I've never experienced this with any other game series either.

 

 

This is happening to me all the time where the opposing player sees me before I see them.. I have really quick reaction, and there are those moments where I say I couldn't of possibly fire sooner. I watch the kill cams and on his view he is looking at me 1-2 seconds before I fire my first shot. And in my screen he just appeared and I immediately had 2-3 hit markers and I melt to the floor. It is really frustrating and started for me in MW3. I can go on black ops and mw2 and rape the opposition, and everything feels on point..

 

I can play BF4 or Battlefront and everything feels smooth..

[wrathoftank]

This is happening to me all the time where the opposing player sees me before I see them.. I have really quick reaction, and there are those moments where I say I couldn't of possibly fire sooner. I watch the kill cams and on his view he is looking at me 1-2 seconds before I fire my first shot. And in my screen he just appeared and I immediately had 2-3 hit markers and I melt to the floor. It is really frustrating and started for me in MW3. I can go on black ops and mw2 and rape the opposition, and everything feels on point..

 

I can play BF4 or Battlefront and everything feels smooth..

I feel for you, I use to have that happen all the time.  A lot of people don't have these issues, which is why it's hard for them to believe.  I'm lucky that I haven't really had serious or frequent connection issues since MW3.  I changed my ISP from VDSL to cable midway through MW3, and that was probably the best decision I could have made because my connection was much better after that.  I can't explain it because everywhere I would ping would be about the same, but it just performed much better for me.

[JConnor]

Ian:

 

I look forward to those videos and tests.

 

However, the big thing that is going to make a world of difference is (I assume) these will be on a closed LAN... Even if you are simulating latency, packet loss, etc?

 

If so, it won't be a true representation of the infinite amount of things that can happen on an wide-spread, open network with multiple nodes (some of which vary in quality), multiple connections, throttling traffic, congestion, etc. I think these play a bigger factor than we may think, but this still doesn't excuse the fact CoD is the only game where it doesn't feel remotely reliable, or fair compared to others like BF4, CSGO, etc. 

[Netduma Iain]

We will connect via xbox live on two separate subnets. Then we will emulate WAN links on different players and see the result. So far the results are very conclusive. But I'll wait till I pulish videos mate.