Anti-Bufferbloat having to be set very low to work?

[EnticingToaster]

So the other day i followed the guide on the site to set up my ideal ABB settings as i was getting alot of packet loss in rainbow six siege while the wife was streaming netflix on the TV. 

I used pingplotter and got my stable baseline ping, without ABB then set my phone, laptop and an ipad streaming and tested again, and yup the ping was all over the place. i then enabled ABB at the default 70/70 to begin with, and it was still bad, i didnt see the ping get back to about the baseline figures till it was 40/50. 

Is this normal? My connection is fibre VDSL 2 and i get 43.5 down 9.3 up. In the ABB connection speeds i put in 44 down 10 up. So basically i'm limiting the connection with ABB on to 17.6 max for any device. I have it on when high priority traffic is detected, and have my gaming PC set in the traffic prioritisation to the "games console" profile, and the duma OS classified games is unchecked.

I currently have everything in the bandwidth allocation set the equal, and share excess bandwidth enabled, i did have the gaming PC higher than the rest, but didnt seem to do anything, so set everything back to default in the QoS section before doing the pingplotter test.

Do i really need to reserve this much bandwidth for ABB to work with my speeds? or is there something i haven't set up correctly

For reference in the pictures below my gaming Pc is called Desktop

[BIG__DOG]

It depends on the quality of your line, the amount of devices you have on your network and most importantly what netflix package you have, for example do you have UHD (4K) package? That requires a big chunk of your bandwidth, minimum requirements for that is 25Mbps.

 

What are you using to get your ABB settings right? DSLreports, PingPlotter or something else?

 

You only need a few Mbps for gaming as gaming packets are very tiny, but as long as your gaming device has priority you will be ok.

[EnticingToaster]

BT came out a laid a new copper cable from the access point at the front of the house to the master socket about 6 months ago, so that part of the line is brand new, but I don't know about the rest of it. We did have some weird issues with speed dropping below the minimum I should get, so that's why the engineer came out, so it's possible the line is dodgy somewhere between the cabinet and my house. 

The Netflix on the TV is just the standard one, and I've seen it use about 12mbps max when monitoring. 

I've got 5 wired devices on the network, but the only ones that are on constantly are the Hive hub and the NAS, but while I'm gaming I turn off the NAS auto backup software so it doesn't try to do anything while I'm playing. I then have another 4 wireless, 2 phones a laptop and iPad, but again they don't hit it all at the same time. 

I used pingplotter and that's why I'm unsure my settings are right as I know gaming packets are pretty small so was expecting to have to leave only like 2mbps free..... Not 26

[Netduma Alex]

Hmm... I've seen issues like this before. Somebody had trouble gaming while his wife was streaming through a fire TV stick. In the end he had to turn his bufferbloat down very low in order to get stable gameplay. Obviously this isn't ideal.

It's hard to tell whether this is a bug or not, because I feel like the Netflix traffic must be being prioritized incorrectly.

Could you let me know how your devices are connected? Wifi/ethernet etc.

Also if your PC is connected via ethernet, could you to to the Table view in Device Manager and see what the maximum link speed is listed as?

[EnticingToaster]

2 hours ago, Netduma Alex said:

Hmm... I've seen issues like this before. Somebody had trouble gaming while his wife was streaming through a fire TV stick. In the end he had to turn his bufferbloat down very low in order to get stable gameplay. Obviously this isn't ideal.

It's hard to tell whether this is a bug or not, because I feel like the Netflix traffic must be being prioritized incorrectly.

Could you let me know how your devices are connected? Wifi/ethernet etc.

Also if your PC is connected via ethernet, could you to to the Table view in Device Manager and see what the maximum link speed is listed as?

Hi Alex,

In my reply above i list my devices and how they are connected. The PC is connected via ethernet, but I'm not sure how to get the table view you requested, the speed setting is set to auto-negotiation, i could try setting it to 1Gbps Full duplex? 

I say it's ethernet but i do have to use a powerline for it. Could this be causing issues? It has built in QoS that I've never changed, but the default is what they just describe as "gaming", I cant find a setting to turn it off, but could maybe try one of the other options? Maybe the gaming one is clashing with the QoS on the router? The powerline speed itself reports around 1050-1200 Mbps whenever I check.....actually as i type this it's just dropped to 786, have we maybe found the issue?

[BIG__DOG]

Power-line adapters are notorious for issues. I have a set, but they do not have an interface with their own QOS either. YOu could try turning off the QOS on the powerline adapter as the router should be handling it all. This is probably your issue. 

[EnticingToaster]

Yeah, I would love to turn it off, but there is no way to.....are there any decent powerline adapters that dont have QoS built in or that can be turned off?

For now I've put it onto the internet setting, as im hoping then whilst gaming it won't try to interfere with the gaming packets, and nothing should be classed as internet?

[BIG__DOG]

3 hours ago, EnticingToaster said:

Yeah, I would love to turn it off, but there is no way to.....are there any decent powerline adapters that dont have QoS built in or that can be turned off?

For now I've put it onto the internet setting, as im hoping then whilst gaming it won't try to interfere with the gaming packets, and nothing should be classed as internet?

see how it goes, hopefully changing it to "internet" may fix the issue and just use the QOS on the netduma. Keep us posted on how you get on.

[EnticingToaster]

11 hours ago, Netduma Alex said:

 

So I've changed it to internet and also there is another setting called vdsl low plc mode. I know I had to have that on with my old router otherwise the speed would drop in half. Trying that again. I shall try putting the ABB settings back to 70/70 to see what happens with the new settings because I should notice any packet loss/ lag at these settings blockquote widget

[Netduma Fraser]

Your bandwidth speeds are low enough that even if the link speed was 100mbps it wouldn't cause you any issues, likewise the powerline showing 786 won't cause you issues. The only times these may be an issue for you is when you're accessing the NAS but you're still getting plenty anyway. Hopefully the above would work but could you just clarify your setup just in case? Is it BT hub > R1 > Powerline (W/ QoS) > PC?

Your Traffic Prioritization selection using the Games Console service may cause you issues as it will prioritize a whole range of ports, while it doesn't prioritize the main internet ports it does prioritize 1024-65535 so if anything on your PC uses that for example torrents then that could cause issues as it would supercede QoS. I would consider using these manual Traffic Prio rules that will prioritize RB6S directly if you still encounter issues (Keep source ports default for all):

UDP: 3074, 6015, 10000 - 10099

TCP: 13000 - 14008

[EnticingToaster]

13 minutes ago, Netduma Fraser said:

Your bandwidth speeds are low enough that even if the link speed was 100mbps it wouldn't cause you any issues, likewise the powerline showing 786 won't cause you issues. The only times these may be an issue for you is when you're accessing the NAS but you're still getting plenty anyway. Hopefully the above would work but could you just clarify your setup just in case? Is it BT hub > R1 > Powerline (W/ QoS) > PC?

Your Traffic Prioritization selection using the Games Console service may cause you issues as it will prioritize a whole range of ports, while it doesn't prioritize the main internet ports it does prioritize 1024-65535 so if anything on your PC uses that for example torrents then that could cause issues as it would supercede QoS. I would consider using these manual Traffic Prio rules that will prioritize RB6S directly if you still encounter issues (Keep source ports default for all):

UDP: 3074, 6015, 10000 - 10099

TCP: 13000 - 14008

Hi Fraser, 

I also play MW, F1 2019 And some other games online, so that's why I used the games console profile, but I can try the ranges you've suggested. 

My Config is Netgear DM200 > XR300 > powerline > PC but I've got all the QoS etc disabled on the DM200 and got it acting just as a modem, so my login to BT etc is done on the XR300 

Playing last night with the internet and lower PLC setting did seem to make it feel better though. And that's with the ABB settings back at 70/70. 

[Netduma Fraser]

The games you play should have similar ranges so may be something you can just widen a bit to get working for all the games. The games console service is fine to use but if you have anything significant using the ports in that range like a torrent then it would negatively affect you. Do you have to use PPPoE at all? Thats a great sign, keep monitoring it and let us know if you encounter any more issues.

[EnticingToaster]

4 minutes ago, Netduma Fraser said:

The games you play should have similar ranges so may be something you can just widen a bit to get working for all the games. The games console service is fine to use but if you have anything significant using the ports in that range like a torrent then it would negatively affect you. Do you have to use PPPoE at all? Thats a great sign, keep monitoring it and let us know if you encounter any more issues.

OK I'll try those ranges, when you say keep source input default do you mean keep it at 1-65535 and only change the destination to those ports? Cause previously I've just done both to the same numbers. 

I think I use PPPoE.... Don't really know what that is but the router detected my connection as that I think, and then I just put in my login as the usual default BT one and it worked. 

I don't use any torrents or anything, when I'm gaming usually the only stuff I have running is the game and then discord

[Netduma Fraser]

Yes that's exactly right, keep the source at 1-65535 for every rule and just change the destination. Okay yes so you do use PPPoE. That may also be a reason why QoS wasn't working as effectively. What I would suggest is have the DM200 handle PPPoE (if possible) instead and then put the XR in it's DMZ then QoS should work more effectively. I think the DM is just a modem though but double check. In that case if you have a spare router you could put between the DM and XR to handle PPPoE instead that would also work, again putting the XR in that routers DMZ.

[EnticingToaster]

Firstly thanks for all the quick replies and being patient with me.  YEs the DM is just a modem and a wired router i think , So I will trying turning the modem back to handling the connection with the ISP yes? Then try and add my router into the DMZ....i think i've seen that option, but never used it before, if i get stuck i may have to ask for some help on how to do it.

[Netduma Fraser]

You're very welcome and that's right! No worries at all, just reply back if you have any issues and will be happy to help

[EnticingToaster]

So, I've reset the DM to default settings, do i need it to act as a DCHP server or not? I can't see any settings anywhere for QoS or DMZ....so i just leave it at default and see how it works?

[Netduma Fraser]

Just checked out the modem, you can leave it as default for DHCP. You definitely can allow it to handle PPPoE which is optimal so that's great. Once you've done that remember to remove the PPPoE details from the XR - basically just say it doesn't require a login anymore and apply, then reboot the router and it should establish a connection. If not go to Settings > Internet Setup and make sure it's all on automatic/dynamic.

[EnticingToaster]

Just a quick update, so far so good. Been playing tonight for a few hours and the only bit of packet loss/lag i noticed was when my wife first started streaming, and it was very brief and didn't happen again. So thanks very much everyone who helped.

Just to sum up in case anyone else has issues, I put the modem back in charge of handling PPPoE, changed the QoS on the powerlines to "internet" and enabled the Lower PLC setting. All while having ABB set to 70/70 too which used to cause issues

Currently in the Traffic Prioritisation I'm just using the Games Console setting at the moment. As i wasn't sure the port range above would cover MW. Should i bother trying that or just leave it as is?

[Netduma Fraser]

That's great to hear, thanks for the update! The motto if it isn't broken don't fix it springs to mind, monitor over the next few days, if you feel it could be better than give it a try.

[BIG__DOG]

Glad to hear your issue seems to be resolved.