Understand FIFA 17 Lag

[tiibor]

Hello all

 

Maybe you have seen my "introduction thread" here where I started to post some information around lags I get with FIFA when playing online.

I can say that for me PING seems absolutely not to be the problem, there must be something different.

 

I do have limited knowledge, but maybe with your ideas and knowledge I will be able to find the root cause for my lags.

 

In general I would say my home setup is optimized: Modem => R1 => Console, all with high quality and short cables.

The lags / problems I want to analyze in this thread do only occur with my main ISP (Swisscom) where I have as well IPTV.

 

My setup:

Swisscom Fibre Internet with 100/100 Speed

PS4 Slim (Wired) <= I used a Xbox One in the past with the same problems so it will not be the console

Controller (USB Wired)

Samsung TV (4k, 20ms lag in Gamemode) PS4 directly attached

AVR Denon

 

Actually my "theory" is, that some of the lags I experience from time to time are either caused by a faulty component (would need to be the Modem/Router from Swisscom) or the fact that they perform some UDP Throttling on either the Network or on the Box.

 

In addition to the example from my introduction post, where I had this type of lags only during certain events (entering the box, skill moves and influence of a player (push, pull)) I just had two games before with constant lag all the time.

 

With the second player I've messaged as I've guessed he is from Switzerland as well due to his emblem. Funny fact: He uses the same provider and faced NO Lags during our game. AND he is using the same provider as I do. <= really strange. Unfortunately he didn't tell me if he is using the IPTV offer as well and what Modem/Router he is using.

 

I will start now with two examples (in addition to the ones in the "introduction thread").

 

1. Example - very awful gameplay: but no details from the opponent:

This is not a good example I think, as this is a mixup of network and button delay/lag

Perfect Ping but laggy gameplay:

 

I know tracert does not say to much, but in this example it seems ok:

 

And here the video from the actual game play: I would say you agree, this is unplayable:

At the start you can see I've got 4 green bars (actually I do not get 5 green bars in the near future any longer)

Look at minute 1:35, where you can see the lag during a penalty. But there is no latency indicator.

 

I am not sure, maybe this first example is a mix of general lags (why ever with 20-30ms ping) and the special lag which I think could come from the UDP throttling my ISP seems performing.

 

 

 

2. Example - Hard to see in the video, but bad gameplay, Button delay: User from Switzerland as well using the same ISP

I do have this type of lag only with my main ISP (95% sure) (but of course I do not want to pay in double if possible)

Ping looks awesome:

 

Tracert also seems perfect:

 

Gameplay video:

Also 4 Green bars, and as mentioned, it's hard to see the lag here. So I would say this could be the lag many players are referring as button delay and sluggish gameplay. <= and no, it feels different to the sometimes not perfect gameplay in offline modes.

=> as you can not see "button delay" you can maybe just feel it a little bit in the penatly scene (and yes, that's typical if you are playing with button delay, you will get 1-2 penalties against you and 1-2 injuries per game). Penatly scene at minute 2:48. Again at minute 4:40/4:50 and 5:54 you can see a slow down, but no lag indicator:

 

 

To be honest, it feels like the console would have been overheated, but as mentioned, this is happening online only. And it will be really bad just in some certain situations: (I copy paste here a part from my introduction thread:)

Events with larger / more packages:

- entering the box (either way)

- skill move

- opponent player is near to year player and influencing (holding back, pushing, just comes near).

 

I find this theory especially interesting as I've watched the peer ping to grow to 300-400ms from before 20-40ms during this events.

So this could really mean there are larger / more packages sent during this events. Or the packages are "synchronized" with the EA Server

 

Examples:

- influencing player,

minute 10:13 in this video:

minute 5:35 in this video:

 

 

Any ideas? Or any tips what could cause this issues which seem to appear only on my side (maybe not for the first example. I still have some days left with pingplotter pro, or I could use wireshark if someone is helping me in how to set it up.

[Netduma Fraser]

No need to use Peer ping as you're only playing against one other person so auto ping host would suffice. Does your TV really have a 20ms delay? That is quite substantial if so and could certainly be contributing to your issues.

 

In terms of ping it's very low and the Geo-filter is doing it's job by getting you the closest possible player. Only things I could suggest is make sure you're using congestion control ~70/70 anti-flood and have your console in hyper traffic. Otherwise take a look here at other things you could look into: https://netduma.com/blog/fifa-17-lag-fix-guide/

[tiibor]

No need to use Peer ping as you're only playing against one other person so auto ping host would suffice. Does your TV really have a 20ms delay? That is quite substantial if so and could certainly be contributing to your issues.

 

In terms of ping it's very low and the Geo-filter is doing it's job by getting you the closest possible player. Only things I could suggest is make sure you're using congestion control ~70/70 anti-flood and have your console in hyper traffic. Otherwise take a look here at other things you could look into: https://netduma.com/blog/fifa-17-lag-fix-guide/

 

Hi Fraser

"In terms of ping it's very low and the Geo-filter is doing it's job by getting you the closest possible player."

OK I will check if I can "see" the delay with the auto ping. <= I just wanted to see the ping / latency to the other player I am having, though using peer ping.

 

"Does your TV really have a 20ms delay? That is quite substantial if so and could certainly be contributing to your issues."

1. 20ms is the best you can get for an TV as far as I know:

   "Since last year, Samsung has consistently produced the most responsive televisions for playing video games, and the UE55KS8000 carried on in the same vein. With [Game Mode] engaged, the display returned a crazy-fast figure of merely 21ms from a Leo Bodnar input lag tester". Source

   I do not really understand your comment here.

    

2. If my setup (beside the internet) would be the issue I wouldn't face this problem just sometimes, and for sure as well in the same extend during offline and online gaming.

"Only things I could suggest is make sure you're using congestion control ~70/70 anti-flood and have your console in hyper traffic. Otherwise take a look here at other things you could look into: https://netduma.com/...-lag-fix-guide/"

Congestion control, 70/70 anti-flood and hyper traffic are in use. As well as I've tested with multiple settings. BUT, as mentioned my IPTV is connected to the Modem/Router provided from my ISP, as HD and UHD channels are not working properly when they are routed thru the R1. Of course the IPTV is not in use or powered on during "game session".

 

Just to be clear: I am aware that the R1 is NOT causing any problems and I also assume that with this ISP the R1 CAN NOT resolve the problem. My intention in this thread is simply to understand why I am having this lags / slow downs with a normally very high quality ISP and almost perfect ping.

 

I think in the end the solution will either be:

• I can tell my ISP that UDP Throttling (or what ever) is causing me problems, and I can provide evidence for this with wireshark or what ever tool
• I can tell my ISP that my line / Modem has a problem, either in general or during certain times
• I can tell EA that one reason the internet is full of people complaining FIFA is lagging and scripting and momentum is due to the fact that XYZ?
• I can tell myself that I can not get rid of the second ISP I am paying for as we can not proof what is causing the issue

 

Please find here an actual picture of my home setup:

 

=> What I could try once is:

Installing the IPTV anyhow behind the R1, setting the R1 to turbo or super turbo mode to see if the UDP Throtteling that seems to happen on the Modem/Router provided from the ISP (you can not use your own Modem) and not on the network can be "eliminated".

This would mean I go to this optimal R1 setup:

 

BUT still I would like to understand what happens in detail :-)

[pantera]

I have the same type of button delay with EA's NHL and Madden series. I have tried many different routers and modems.

I'm from the US and Time Warner Cable / Spectrum is the ISP I am stuck with. Ping doesn't seem to be the issue with me

either. This is very confusing.

 

Oh and yeah 20ms on a HDTV is about as good as it gets. I'm using a BENQ gaming monitor and it has 10ms input delay.

[Netduma Fraser]

If your ping is good and your setup is good then it wouldn't appear to be anything on your end. Someone else suggested turning off the manager and that it really helped. 

 

Do you notice throttling at certain times of day? Run a ping plotter direct from your modem/router. 

 

If as above that is the case then it is likely the game itself. Perhaps switching the console HD for an SSD would improve it. It really doesn't sound like a networking issue unless ping plotter flags something.

[tiibor]

@pantera. lets see what I can find. Generally I would assume that EA is reusing it's network code or part of it in various games (in this case, sports and heavy AI supported games (as you are steering / influencing a team, and not only one player)

 

@Fraser: "If your ping is good and your setup is good then it wouldn't appear to be anything on your end."
So you are "sure" it can't be something like UDP Throttling or anything else generating those strange lags? As mentioned, I do not have this type of lag with my other ISP.

=> must be either the Moden/Router or something in the line "out of my reach".

 

"Someone else suggested turning off the manager and that it really helped."

I've tested all the voodoo, and for the sluggish gameplay, yes maybe it got better, also bronze benching can help. But the problem I want to discover here is about those strange lags / slow downs, NOT about the sluggish game play.

 

"Do you notice throttling at certain times of day? Run a ping plotter direct from your modem/router."

I would say yes, it's worse in the evening, peak time. ping plotter will most probably just help me as long as I've the full version and can also test with UDP packages.

But I will give it a try and see if I can see differences during different times of the day.

 

"If as above that is the case then it is likely the game itself. Perhaps switching the console HD for an SSD would improve it. It really doesn't sound like a networking issue unless ping plotter flags something."

As mentioned in the intro, I've even switched from XB1 to PS4, same problem with the one ISP. And I do NOT have this issues when playing offline, so it must have something to do with the network, net code what ever.

[Netduma Fraser]

I can't be sure but gaming doesn't require much bandwidth so as long as you have enough to game (which I imagine you would) then I wouldn't have thought that'd be the issue unless theres not enough for all your other devices. 

 

So if you game using your other ISP you don't have any of these issues at all? Then it is very likely the ISP doing something.

 

Ping plotter would be good, it may reveal you have a lot of jitter or packet loss. 

[tiibor]

Hello there

 

I've tested now for almost 2 hours various settings: no chance to get the IPTV running behind the R1. Normally it should be possible with multicast snooping, but what ever setting I've tried: no chance. Maybe I will get lucky once the new OS for the R1 will be released.

 

I will connect my PS4 now to the other ISP (ETTH 2 LAN => R1 => PS4) and enjoy decent gameplay. In parallel I will run some tests with pingplotter to see if I can find something that could indicate that "there are certain times" where I get packet loss / drops.

 

Anyhow, if anybody has an idea how to monitor / sniff the network in regard to FIFA packages with wireshark or any other software: please let me know.

[tiibor]

I can't be sure but gaming doesn't require much bandwidth so as long as you have enough to game (which I imagine you would) then I wouldn't have thought that'd be the issue unless theres not enough for all your other devices. 

 

So if you game using your other ISP you don't have any of these issues at all? Then it is very likely the ISP doing something.

 

Ping plotter would be good, it may reveal you have a lot of jitter or packet loss. 

 

As mentioned, I assume my ISP is throttling UDP packages, but maybe not a size that matters for FIFA. To know/understand I would like to sniff, but I do not know how.

Maybe the situation is even easier, living in a city with "new" fibre to the home possibility, maybe something went wrong during the installation.

Or maybe there is an faulty component which is just "faulty" when there is to much traffic.

 

Anyhow, I think pingplotter should help me here.

• Do you have tips how to set it up?
• Shall I run with standard settings (2.5 sec, ICMP packages etc. => really all standard)
• or shall I use different intervals, or package size? Or switch to UDP packes?
• can I run mutiple test in parallel? If yes, maybe in 5 sec intervalls instead of 2.5sec?
• and finally: shall I test against twitter.com, easo.ea.com, both of them or anything other?

 

Thank you again :-)

[tiibor]

Yikes - Pingplotter is showing horrible results I would say. Currently my R1 is not in the loop, I've really connected my PC (image with "nothing" installed on it beside, Pingplotter, Greenshot and Traktor) directly to the Modem/Router from my ISP.

 

First, it seems that there are different path used, for twitter.com but as eall to the ea test server.

First I start with twitter (some packet loss "in the wild" but strange path. Second to EA where I see just way to many packet loss at my ISPs Modem.

 

EDIT: I will post the details (5, 60 and 180 minutes) in a separat answer to keep a bit of an overview.

 

 

Twitter Path1

 

 

Twitter Path2

 

 

Here Path to EA, seems there are 4 path (if not even more):

EA Path 1

 

EA Path 2

 

EA Path 3

 

EA Path 4

[tiibor]

An here three different detail views about the packet loss. It seems there are times without any loss, but the times with huge loss is definitely more present then the opposite.

 

1. 5 minutes overview

 

2. 60 minutes overview (see around 13:00 and 13:33 almost no packet loss

 

3. 180 minutes overview (more often packet loss than no packet loss)

[tiibor]

Hi there

 

I've done some further testing, and it seems something is not right with my ISPs Modem/Router,

 

I've done some testing during the above timeline;

14:18    Modem / Router Restart
14:21    Disconnect Cable to the ASUS WLAN Router
14:24    Modem / Router Restart
14:27    Disconnect IPTV Box
14:28    Modem / Router Restart
14:32    Disconnect AVR
14:34    Deactivate WLAN on the Modem / Router
14:36    Modem / Router Restart
15:07    Modem / Router Hard Reset (Power Off, pull power cable, pull fibre cable)
 

 

Shall I ran more tests? Or do you think I should request some tests from my ISP strait away?

 

 

UPDATE

Seems again that some pingplotter tests where running in the background (not really understand the logics of this tool):

 

So let me do some tests more... (argh...)

[Netduma Fraser]

I would say theres definitely enough there to contact your ISP with this proof and see if there is anything you can do about it because that is pretty bad from what I can see.

[Zennon]

It is either the cable from the wall to the modem, the modem itself or the broadband line.

 

Looks like one of the first two to me.

[tiibor]

Hello Fraser and Zennon, thank you for your answer.

=> As you can see by my last comment/edit I've seen that in another "workspace" from pingplotter some pings where running in parallel.

 

Have you seen this and still say:

• nope definitely you should not see this amount of packet loss
• the short times of "no loss at all" support this
• go and contact your ISP

Or considering the parallel pingplotters running "must" cause a situation like that and I have to run more / other tests?

If yes, what do you think would be a good / realistic period for the pings, 2.5 seconds? Or shorter as I assume during a FIFA session the packages are sent within millit seconds, not seconds. But I fear I start comparing "Apples and Pears"

 

Thank you and with kind regards

[Zennon]

I can confirm running several ping plotter tests at once creates packet loss on my first hop.

[AlsaibaiH]

Just throwing this out there. Not gonna read throu all posts. Fifa will lag for you if the other person is lagging. If he lags on purpose you will lag along with him. So don't bother over tuning your connection for this.

[tiibor]

Just throwing this out there. Not gonna read throu all posts. Fifa will lag for you if the other person is lagging. If he lags on purpose you will lag along with him. So don't bother over tuning your connection for this.

 

Hi AlsaibaiH, as you did not read thru the posts you missed to idea of this post. So not relevant but anyhow thank you.

[tiibor]

Hi there, seems this host from FIFA FUT is mislocated:

ac9fc9943c4b9499

Distance: 9472km

Ping 38ms

 

Can you please correct it?

[Netduma Fraser]

Hi there, seems this host from FIFA FUT is mislocated:

ac9fc9943c4b9499

Distance: 9472km

Ping 38ms

 

Can you please correct it?

 

If you could post that here with the others that would be very helpful: http://forum.netduma.com/topic/18965-cloud-incorrect-locations/page-6

[tiibor]

Hi there

 

I am still suffering from heavy lags, wich are more likely slow downs or some "latency optimization" from EA.

Loos at the trace to my opponent: Yes I know trace is not accurate... but why else should I see such lags all the time when the opponent is close and ping is good or even great?

 

 

Video from first half:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuzFGsiWhzg&feature=youtu.be

 

Video from second half:

https://youtu.be/7PNmoTkRYpI

 

 

Any ideas why I am suffering from this kind of lags?

[Netduma Fraser]

Were ALL your pingplotter results due to running multiple tests at the same time? If not that's still the big cause of your lag. As you've said trace is inaccurate so don't use it as a diagnostic tool. What ping are you getting to the game? Do you notice any ping spikes when the stuttering occurs on the game?

[tiibor]

Hi Fraser

 

"Were ALL your pingplotter results due to running multiple tests at the same time?"

So far yes, but I can run more tests if needed.

 

"If not that's still the big cause of your lag."

Agree if pingplotter was real, this would explain. But would be strange that both fiber lines are lagging.

But I will setup a long time plotter again and ensure just one ping is running at the time. Shall I use twitter.com for this? Or an actual EA Server?

 

"As you've said trace is inaccurate so don't use it as a diagnostic tool."

But do you agree with me that it's "funny" that it seems always an EA server is involved? For me this could clearly explain some of the lags. That the server is miss located is clear, but for me it's less about where the EA server is "sitting" but more about THAT an EA server is there an having a negative impact on my game, even it is supposed to be P2P.

 

"What ping are you getting to the game? Do you notice any ping spikes when the stuttering occurs on the game?"

Ping really depends, I've played opponents with 8ms, EA Servers with 30ms. So I would say normally 20-30ms in Season game mode.

 

 

If you have had a look on the videos:

You will see stuttering and slow downs, you will never see the "lag indicator" from EA. So really really strange behavior.

[Netduma Fraser]

Yes I would do one ping plotter on it's own, see what it says. You can use Twitter yes. 

 

The host you had - the one in the picture that you traced is not an EA server, it's just another player. I checked the ID, it's correctly located as well. If that trace is correct then it could be going to an EA server but only for authentication as you are connected to another player. 

 

Thats a really good ping, is it stable. I am happy to take a look in a 1 on 1 but it sounds like the Netduma is doing it's job so may not be much I can do. 

 

Post in the 1 on 1 section: http://forum.netduma.com/forum/66-request-1-on-1/and I will have a look. Please note I need around a days notice.

 

Please read this first before making the post: http://forum.netduma.com/topic/11450-read-before-posting-a-1-on-1-request/

[tiibor]

Hi again

 

Just played 3 other matched an had the netduma gui open: 17-18ms ping, no peeks during "stuttering", there was once an increase to 50ms during the match, but not during "stutter time". And there was no increase at all in the second match, but again a lot of stuttering, with an 17-18ms ping...

 

Ping of 18.3, but tracert not finished:

 

I've also on with completed tracert, but I know you do not need the tracert ;-)

So if you like, find the pic here: http://forum.netduma.com/uploads/images/1498501579-U16852.png

 

Video:

 

 

"Yes I would do one ping plotter on it's own, see what it says. You can use Twitter yes. "

OK will setup today or tomorrow.

 

"The host you had - the one in the picture that you traced is not an EA server, it's just another player. I checked the ID, it's correctly located as well. If that trace is correct then it could be going to an EA server but only for authentication as you are connected to another player."

Yes I know that the host is the other player (in P2P), but still it seems that I've heavy lags / stuttering with an 18ms ping. So I assumed that it's maybe caused by the EA Server which is "dong what ever" during the game as well. I think to get this I need to watch a tutorial how to sniff with wireshark or lanc.

 

"Thats a really good ping, is it stable. I am happy to take a look in a 1 on 1 but it sounds like the Netduma is doing it's job so may not be much I can do. "

Yes the ping is great (or even better) and I agree, the Netduma is doing the job. But I am happy if I can find the real problem behind my lags / stuttering and 

 

"Post in the 1 on 1 section: http://forum.netduma...request-1-on-1/and I will have a look. Please note I need around a days notice.

Please read this first before making the post: http://forum.netduma...1-on-1-request/"

OK great idea thank you, I will check tomorrow. Working from home tomorrow and on Friday, so I could also do some tests during the day.