Zennon Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 As the title suggests do you think its is bandwidth based or ping based or do you think there is no compensation at all? Lets see if we can gather the info and maybe someone can dispel the myths Starting with me.. I think it is ping based (latency) not how fast your connection is or is throttled. A good quality 1mb broadband line can send ping's just as fast as a 300mb line. We will keep this as a log of thoughts so maybe we can have some of it dispelled by someone I know on here that knows his stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Netduma Staff Netduma Crossy Posted May 30, 2015 Netduma Staff Share Posted May 30, 2015 Ping based. They can't accurately calculate what your bandwidth speeds are I don't believe. I don't think its actually too much 'compensation' (although I guess people will disagree with me there) but I think its more that they have to have an algorithm that will merge 12 different worlds into one. Just my opinion though, no actual evidence to back it up, I'm basing it more on the lack of evidence for what others are claiming EDIT: You also have to think, these guys are experts in what they do, why would they base lag compensation on bandwidth when it has become quite clear (from what I have seen) that it is basically as long as you have 1mb up and down (it's actually less than that) then anything above that makes no difference. As we've seen, ping is king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Netduma Iain Posted May 30, 2015 Administrators Share Posted May 30, 2015 I haven't researched the topic but I assume bandwidth has nothing to do with it unless you barely have any because I don't see how the game can know how much bandwidth you have. We could do an experiment if you wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Good topic First, as we all know there is no way to game in real time across great distances without any sort of "lag" compensation at all. As much as people want it removed... due to misinformation... That is just not possible in this day and age. Certain games in the '90s had no latency comp, so players had to aim in front of, or behind targets depending on a number of conditions. This is why lag comp exists, today. We can just "point and shoot" directly at what we want and hit it, supposedly. However, if we get technical, none of this is in real time since the game is constantly updating things on our screen... which means a minuscule delay; ping time... and it is limited by the speed of light, ironically. We don't perceive this delay since it is in ms if we have a good ping, but the only way to have a true real time gaming experience would be on a LAN, and/or with no lag compensation settings at all... That some games have such as Counter-Strike where you can set it up for LAN, or WAN play. Now, that we are all on the same page, hopefully... Most lag compensation, from my understanding, is ping based because this is the backbone of online gaming; the amount of time (round trip) it takes for data to be sent by the client, received by the server and sent back to the client again. Where we run into problems is when too many things are client-based... such as hit markers, blood splatter, flinch animations, etc... That give a false indication the server has registered a hit, or kill. This is why people get upset when they "unload an entire clip" into somebody, get hit markers... which are client-side... Yet they fail to kill the person they were aiming at. This is because the server has not registered the hits yet, nor the kill since data is being sent back and forth by the ms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dog Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 It's Ping based, no question. Anybody who really wants to know the hows and whys, should follow the link to Respawn Entertainment, read Hit registration, Lag comp, and slothy's ramblings, and pay attention to what slothy, has to say on the subject. He was responsible for writing the code and its implementation in CoD4/MW2. The man is a genius! http://www.respawn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2375&start=75 I think, Mousey - from DK Boards, summed it up quite nicely too. "Lag compensation is just the method in which hit detection is processed. Each packet just has a timestamp confirming when a hit happened and what everything looked like at the time. The only reason it's even needed is to prevent hacks that just let people kill everyone at once with a console command or whatever. It's not something that can be "adjusted" because it's damn near perfect if you're not still running on dial up or torrenting porn." So much crap gets bandied around on the internet, people don't know what to believe. Too many "tinfoil hat theories" gain traction, especially on the net, and get passed on as fact. I would rather believe the word of the man who literally wrote the book on it, than a in/famous youtuber spouting crap looking for subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Netduma Iain Posted May 30, 2015 Administrators Share Posted May 30, 2015 I don't know if what cod players refer to as lag comp is essentially dead reckoning? That is just extrapolating movements so that you don't get jittery/teleporting players. So instead of updating a players position every time a packet arrives you assume they are doing what they did in the last packet until the update. So they are going at this orientation with this acceleration, velocity, whatever. That's why when the host disconnects you see everyone run in a straight line and eventually hits walls. I assume however that people are referring to how the game handles paradoxes. So siutations where two players have contradicting view points. I'm behind cover says player A but player B says I shot it. From a high level pov games have to decide if its either: What the player see's on his screen happens What the servers current state of the world is goes The former favors laggy players as they can kill you even with high ping. The latter favours low ping players as they are more in sync with the server due to lower delay. Games obviously choose a point between the two and it probably depends works different for different game mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RADDY1993 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 Lag Compensation Explained Most of you are too lazy to read my entire article on lag, so I figured I would at least break it down and explain what lag compensation is so you can stop spreading false information. Below is a quick explanation, if you have any question about anything feel free to send me a PM or you can post your question hereWHAT IS LAG COMPENSATIONLag compensation IS NOT the throttling of a connection so everyone is playing "on the same level". It's the prediction of a players location to make up for the time lost during the physical transfer of packets from one's PS3 to the server(host). For instance:At 10.5 seconds you shoot someone at point 'A' and that information is sent to the serverAt 10.6 seconds the information arrives at the server and the information is processed by the server, the target has now moved to point 'B'Lag comp kicks in and rewinds the time back to 10.5 seconds when the target is at 'A' to determine whether or not the target was hit FORUMLA FOR LAG COMPENSATION The forumla for lag compensation is as follows: OPTIMIZING LAG COMPENSATION The best way to enhance you gaming experience is to not mess with or try to manipulate lag compensation. Do your best to leave plenty of bandwith (between 800kb and 1.5mb) for online play and let the game do it's own thing. Also, you probably will never notice lag compensation at work. What most people assume lag compensation is is the difference between what the player sees and what killcam shows. This is not necessarily lag compensation, just good ol' fashion lag Without lag compensation the game would be far more unplayable that it is now. This rewinding processes doesn't work for just bullets like the example eludes too. It works on every aspect of the game. Think of it like taking 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. The game plays out and when information doesn't add up it rewinds to the point that it does. If this process doesn't occur then you have people skipping across the map IMPORTANT: Although you might have a premium connection and you're experiencing very little ping, you also have to consider that it might be other people that are lagging. It doesn't matter what side lag is on. If one person is having trouble communicating their position with the host is can cause problems for the whole lobby and give the impression that you're lagging as well Command Execution Time = Current Server Time - Packet Latency - Client View InterpolationMISCONCEPTIONSLag compensation is often thought to be the throttling of ones connection to match that of others, thus giving the idea that having lesser internet might benefit a player. This is obviously not true. Lag compensation has to work harder when the ping is higher and stops working around 1000ms of ping. This means that when lag reaches that of 1 sec lag compensation can no longer effectively predict the location of another player HERE'S ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT FROM RLBL What we (just about everyone) does not seem to understand is: Everything that happens in the game, already happened. What do I mean: Let's say a player is moving from point A to point B: A---------->B The problem is: When we see them at point A, they have already moved to a new position: call it X A----X----->B The system/host knows they are at point X, but that information has not reached us yet. If the lag was reduced (matchmaking?) the difference (in position and time) between A and X would be minimal... So what do we do? Well we shoot at A. If the lag is not too bad*, the system says: player you were shooting at A but we know the player is at X and you are lagged by "xxx seconds" so we will award you the kill if we (the system) says yes the player was where you were shooting xxx seconds ago (this is Lag Compensation - a very SIMPLE concept which I cannot figure out why so few people understand it...). Aim Assist: Let us say you are ADSING at point A, but the system knows the player has moved to point X (as above). The gun will keep trying to pull to the right. Our brains say "Hey stupid aim assist, stop pulling me off target!!!" but the reality is: The system is trying to put us on target. Original Article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagsta69 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 I have done tests in n numerous occasions and numerous versions of cod and over a set of ten matches throttled connections make no difference on my connection. Lag compensation has to exist to play online. I think that the developers over the different releases have used different values etc to try to get the game to play well for the majority. Contrary to popular belief they don't have it in for you with lag compensation but it doesn't help when many people keep gimping their connections to TRY to circumvent lag comp. Sorry to bang on but if people just got their networks working to the best they possibly can I believe that the game would play much better for the majority of the time. Now mm is a whole other thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagsta69 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 sorry double post doh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 I have done tests in n numerous occasions and numerous versions of cod and over a set of ten matches throttled connections make no difference on my connection. Lag compensation has to exist to play online. I think that the developers over the different releases have used different values etc to try to get the game to play well for the majority. Contrary to popular belief they don't have it in for you with lag compensation but it doesn't help when many people keep gimping their connections to TRY to circumvent lag comp. Sorry to bang on but if people just got their networks working to the best they possibly can I believe that the game would play much better for the majority of the time. Now mm is a whole other thread A big part of the problem is Activision MM because it insists on pairing players up from around the globe... Literally... When it should not. So, while everybody in one area might ping 30ms to a host, all it takes is that one player who pings 120ms to throw everybody off. Like Ian said, depending on the method of lag comp / netcode, the player with the high ping could do better in the game than those with lower ping. That's just a limitation of technology, but it's obviously unfair and takes all competitive meaning out of the game, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagsta69 Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 A big part of the problem is Activision MM because it insists on pairing players up from around the globe... Literally... When it should not. So, while everybody in one area might ping 30ms to a host, all it takes is that one player who pings 120ms to throw everybody off. Like Ian said, depending on the method of lag comp / netcode, the player with the high ping could do better in the game than those with lower ping. That's just a limitation of technology, but it's obviously unfair and takes all competitive meaning out of the game, IMO. You don't have to add "IMO" this isn't AW forums lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procreate Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 I just wonder if games always track your ping since it is a dynamic value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zennon Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 I just wonder if games always track your ping since it is a dynamic value. I think they do not track the ping in real time this is why my friend who has bad jitter that is on and off who is by all intense and purposes is a bad player, god bless him can go on massive streaks when the lobby sees he has a 400ms ping but it backs down to his normal 14ms and he has 384ms on everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 You don't have to add "IMO" this isn't AW forums lol I always qualify my remarks since everybody's experience and perspective is different. That's how you know this isn't the AW forums - lol P.S. -- The typical passive aggressive posts on the AW forum always consist of... "just sayin'" "no offense" "With all due respect" I am making it a pact to not use any of those on this forum as not to taint it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zennon Posted May 30, 2015 Author Share Posted May 30, 2015 This forum is jam packed with quality people , the first place i have ever bother replying to thanks for all the reply's guys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 30, 2015 Share Posted May 30, 2015 This may be semi-related, so I'll let you guys decide: Since I moved my home location on the Geofilter to the "center" of the U.S. (Kansas), I seem to be always on the KC Server. As we all know, dedicated servers are terrible. There could be any number of reasons for this, but I think the big reason isn't the server hardware itself. It's the fact it doesn't have a Geofilter, so it lets ANYBODY connect. I looked at a Ground War match I was just in and there were two and three players with two, yellow bar "pings". The game was choppy, certain players warping all over the place, and I think we even had a lag spike since the entire match froze for a few seconds and then sped back up? The irony is my ping to the KC Server is 40ms. Tops. Never spikes above this, but I have a feeling it is those two and three bar players that make dedicated servers undesirable? So, I now see why dedicated servers aren't the best, but I also think it is because the MM is programmed to allow anybody from anywhere to connect... Versus a P2P host that while not Netduma equipped (for some), still filters people a lot closer than what a dedicated server allows? The reason I believe this is because for certain game modes and times of day it is butter smooth. Like a LAN. So, I expect more traffic on a weekend which is why I am even bringing this up since my normal experience on the KC Server is pretty good, actually. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zennon Posted May 31, 2015 Author Share Posted May 31, 2015 I find because i have turned my back on AW and play ghosts and mw3 bops and bops 2 that all the player base comes from the uk when i play Aw it is from all over. I hope they never make another cod but they will they have a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I find because i have turned my back on AW and play ghosts and mw3 bops and bops 2 that all the player base comes from the uk when i play Aw it is from all over. I hope they never make another cod but they will they have a contract. I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but there are those who believe they do this to make the game as random as possible to give new players a chance? It sounds absurd, but then again, look at what is happening with MM. I believe it is the OP SBMM that people know exists, but Activision and SHG will never come clean on. SBMM itself is not bad. It's when it may be executed like it currently may be in AW, where it prioritizes stats and overrides connections, possibly, where all gamers suffer. There is no other explanation because I reject the "Tinfoil Hat" theories and rely on facts and what Activision could gain by using a whacked out version of SBMM to "protect bad players" to keep them playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bagsta69 Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Myself in the uk and my buddy east coast us have just spent about 2-3 hours having a blast after 2-3 DAYS of rubbish connections. AW is just hit and miss guys. Most games great then out of the blue 3-19 on dom, wtf. next game as it should be. crazy game AW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I think a big part of it is also time of day... Or night, or early morning Meaning, less congestion = better (faster?) trips through the hops to and from the servers / hosts? I just got out of a four hour session (2 Hrs on XB1; 2 Hrs on PS4) and it was flawless. I mean, I was going positive every match and at the top of the leader boards. I played TDM, KC, and DOM. I even made this kid rage over the chat - lol. I also played Ground War (like I mentioned above) and that was the only time it got "wonky"... Mostly because the MM puts people with two and three yellow bars in matches with people who are closer to the host / server. Grrr... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
procreate Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 my thoughts on SBMM should work like this, join lobby based solely on ping. then divide up players by skill to even out the teams as best as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iAmMoDBoX Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 It's Ping based, no question. Anybody who really wants to know the hows and whys, should follow the link to Respawn Entertainment, read Hit registration, Lag comp, and slothy's ramblings, and pay attention to what slothy, has to say on the subject. He was responsible for writing the code and its implementation in CoD4/MW2. The man is a genius! http://www.respawn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2375&start=75 I think, Mousey - from DK Boards, summed it up quite nicely too. "Lag compensation is just the method in which hit detection is processed. Each packet just has a timestamp confirming when a hit happened and what everything looked like at the time. The only reason it's even needed is to prevent hacks that just let people kill everyone at once with a console command or whatever. It's not something that can be "adjusted" because it's damn near perfect if you're not still running on dial up or torrenting porn." So much crap gets bandied around on the internet, people don't know what to believe. Too many "tinfoil hat theories" gain traction, especially on the net, and get passed on as fact. I would rather believe the word of the man who literally wrote the book on it, than a in/famous youtuber spouting crap looking for subs. As I was reading the OP I was going to find this same article to post. I believe it is the closest thing we have to talking to a cod dev about how the game's lag comp works. However, when he was working on the games the system actually worked so who knows what they're doing these days... Right now I believe demonware is the company who codes and writes the match making and networking side of the game which would include the lag comp system. As for the "conspiracy theories" I definitely believe that we are being toyed with for the newbs to have fun. I mainly play search and destroy and there will be one game where I clearly dominate and then the next game I can't hit anything. My friends all say the same thing and we've been playing cod search and destroy for years since cod2 on pc. It's very inconsistent, at least on aw, and it makes it even more apparent that something is going on behind the scenes to "screw" over the better players in favor of hooking the newer players on the addiction that is cod... However since fine tuning my R1, my stats don't lie lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dog Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 As for the "conspiracy theories" I definitely believe that we are being toyed with for the newbs to have fun. I mainly play search and destroy and there will be one game where I clearly dominate and then the next game I can't hit anything. My friends all say the same thing and we've been playing cod search and destroy for years since cod2 on pc. It's very inconsistent, at least on aw, and it makes it even more apparent that something is going on behind the scenes to "screw" over the better players in favor of hooking the newer players on the addiction that is cod... I agree, at times, it certainly feels as if "something" is interfering with how the game plays. Whether it be Sniper frog, latency or intervention from a higher power is anyone's guess. I'm sure most have seen this vid by BDobbinsFTW, for those that haven't, I'll leave it here. It's well worth a watch maz, as he makes a very persuasive argument which cover some of the points your post alluded to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 There is another video by BDobbins, about SBMM: The main point a lot of people miss is towards the end of the video and it is the Achilles Heel of CoD: CoD is mainly about virtual killing, but this means the game play has to evolve in order to keep the fun factor going when players AREN'T killing other players. He cites "Halo 3" as a good argument to support this theory. I agree with his assessment, having played H3. CoD needs to start increasing the skill level -- vs. decreasing it -- So, players have to earn their kills and they aren't just handed to them like they are now. When something is easy, it becomes boring really fast. It may lower the entry level for newcomers, but at the end of the day, it won't retain those newcomers because there is no challenge in the long-run. This is where we are now with CoD 11, and it doesn't look like it will change in CoD 12 a.k.a. BO3. Don't get me wrong, I like CoD, but when you play other FPS... It really does feel shallow and mindless compared to even other arcade shooters out there, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JConnor Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 As an on-going update to this discussion... I just played two hours on XB1. Pretty good games... Until about the last half-hour when things went to shit. Meaning, a lot of three, and two bars started joining (probably kids getting home from Church, or other Sunday activities) and then even with the R1, hit detection went missing as were players wrapping around the screen. So, I don't think there is a "lag comp conspiracy" in the sense Activision is putting randomness into the game on purpose. I believe it is primarily their crappy MM allowing anybody to play when there should be stricter criteria in place e.g. ping restriction, region restrictions, etc. So, when more people are on, there is a greater chance of bad connections and this is what we are seeing. All it takes is one player with a less than desirable ping and the whole lobby is screwed. Add in SBMM that may prioritize matching people by stats over ping and multiply this by four, or five (or more) players and you can see how the online experience in AW is not remotely optimized, or even competitive, for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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