M16 vs AK47

[Sgt-Greco]

AK47 less accurate

M16 more expensive

ΑΚ47 never jams

Μ16 less recoil

AK47 "bad guys" weapon of choice

M16 "killing me softly"

AK47 heavy

Μ16 light

AK47 brutal

M16 delicate

 

 

East vs West

Love 'em both. 

 

 

[Netduma Iain]

Nice summary! 

[Dillinger]

Is this for a real world comparison?  Because I could go on for DAYS on this topic.... LOL

[fuzzy clam]

Agree with Dillinger   

[Dillinger]

Agree with Dillinger   

 

You know what Fuzzy? No one seems to be shutting this one down, so maybe this was an invitation to share what we have amassed in our travels?

 

How about, come tomorrow if the thread is still here, you and I go in on a little educational trip for those that are interested?

[Netduma Iain]

Go for it lads!

[Akic]

I'm in .  Let it rip boys

[Dillinger]

So let's start with the list above and expand a bit on why these are common tag lines you see associated with the respective rifles.

 

AK-47 goes first, because it was developed first.  

 

Less Accurate:  

·         This is a common, all too common, belief that isn’t actually, well, accurate.  The first shot out of an AK can be very accurate, but the follow up shots will not be as accurate because of the Operating Rod system that is used to cycle the action.  I can go into further detail if anyone is interested, but suffice to say the base mechanics of the AK can be very accurate, and with today’s technology, can compete with some other rifles out there in this category (within reason if you set ballistics aside).

Never Jams:

·         This is another of the” all too common myths” out there, especially in this firearms category.  The AK is more reliable than other weapon platforms, but that reliability is based on much looser tolerances around the initial design, and the operating rod driven cycling mechanics.   People who champion the platform will tell you, if they are honest, that as they tune the accuracy, they notice that this “never jams” myth is quickly put to the test.

Bad guys weapon of choice:

·         The AK variant is probably the MOST copied firearm in the world, and has been for a while.  The genius of Mikhail’s design is that the ENTIRE design was to utilize mass produced, loose tolerance parts that could be easily slapped together.   Any country that has history steeped in war, most likely has a variant of the original AK design that they “adopted” and produced themselves.  To say it’s the bad guy’s weapon of choice is merely because the SHEAR VOLUME of reproductions out there makes it one of the most easily obtained styles in most countries.  They are cheap to make, cheap to buy and they can do work on the battlefield.

Heavy:

·         This harkens back to the initial design, which was of steel construction because it needed to handle the tough Soviet winters.  The weapon was issued with a solid wood stock, solid wood fore-end & pistol grip, and the rest of the gun was made out of steel with a few aluminum/very thin steel parts.  It was about 8 pounds, unloaded, and the early magazines were about 1 pound each.  Even with all that going “against it” (I personally feel this was an advantage not a detriment) it was directly in line with weapon systems of the time like the Russian PPSh-41 (8 pounds unloaded) and the German StG-44 (over 10 pounds unloaded). 

Brutal:

·         Any firearm can do devastating things to the fragile human condition.  So why does this weapon get such a reputation for bloodshed?  Again, Mikhail knew what he was doing and wasn’t a dummy.  The Soviets wanted a weapons platform that would compete directly with the German StG-41 in firepower.  The Russians were getting outgunned, and they wanted to tip the scales.  I am going to gloss over some Russian cartridge history and just say, enter the 7.62mm x 39mm round.  For you American readers, this is essentially a .30 caliber rifle bullet (like your .308) but with the extra air gap removed from the brass (though the early Russian cartridges were thin walled steel).  A big bullet, crammed into a smaller profile cartridge, and you have a stack of them to fire.  This is one of the key reasons this platform still continues to be used EVERYWHERE.  The cartridge, range limitations included as it was a specific design request, is just a ferocious ball of disaster coming your way.  It’s not that the rifle is unparalleled in its ability to deliver this type of payload, it’s just a really well thought out design (for the most part) that hurls big bullets in groups at the opposition.  This projectile hits hard, tears through muscle and bone, and frequently comes out the other side.  

[Dirty Dog]

Good read D. Have you fired one?

[Dillinger]

By contrast, let’s look at the Armalite platform that became the AR-10/AR-15 that eventually became the COLT M16/M4/etc.

 

More Expensive:  

·         There’s no sugar coating this one, and it’s not just one person’s opinion.  This weapon system was designed around “lightweight” and “accurate”, whereas Mikhail’s priority was “do damage” and “sustain Russian climates”.  As such “aircraft grade” (which is a BS term) aluminum was utilized, new space-aged plastics, and a litany of small, annoying to assemble, easy to lose, pieces to make the system perform.  In a straight comparison on costs, the AR is going to run you more cash than an AK 99% of the time.

 

Less Recoil / Killing me softly:

·         I really have to lump these two together because they both address one of two key features as to why this rifle platform didn’t get the best reviews when it debuted, and later when it went to war in S.E. Asia.  The Colt M16 (Military designation after open trails) utilizes a NATO standard 5.56mm x 45mm cartridge that has more history to it than a Jerry Springer opening guest.  This is a lightweight round that doesn’t take up a lot of space in soldier’s pack, but had good range with modest stopping power.   Just the numbers alone tell a difference to those with some basic math.  AR = 5.56mm vs AK = 7.62mm (for you US folks .223 caliber vs. .30 caliber)

·         This cartridge (5.56mm) offers very light recoil, in relation to the weight of the weapon, but also is built to fly accurately to longer distances than the AK variant.  It is also supersonic for a longer period of time, thus the intended target may not hear the sound of the report from the rifle before the round reaches their immediate area of operations, thus “killing them softly”.  The problem is, within a split second after that first round hits, the sound is right behind it, so you had better be ready.

 

Light:

·         So we have a specific design-build contract for a lighter weapon system that fires at a high rate of speed, with a lower mass projectile (the military was trying to downsize from the traditional .30 caliber rounds like those used by the Garand), and we used aluminum and plastic construct it?  Yeah.  Early models weighed in less than 6 pounds (about 2.5Kg).

Delicate:

·         I always love this one because it only comes out when compared head to head with something like an AK.  This model features an entirely different cycling mechanism from the Operating Rod used on the AK.  The AR uses gas in the same manner as the AK, siphoned off from the barrel as a bullet is fired, but then the gas returns to the rifle action and uses built pressure to cycle the system instead of making the Operating rod do the work.  It’s a lot like blowing real hard on a pencil to get it to roll across your desk as opposed to pushing it with your finger.  Because the AR/M variants don’t have that heavy metal rod slamming back and forth, they are inherently more accurate, especially in follow up shots or in burst fire applications.  There is a big long diatribe I could go into here about full auto M-16 fire vs M4 (burst style) fire and how the military had to refine their training, but it’s a lot and I don’t want to weigh down the audience.

 

·         Why it’s delicate:  So the AK had looser tolerances and had an operating rod that does the heavy lifting for cycling and the AR/Colt M-variants have tighter overall tolerances, and use straight gas to operate the cycling of the action.  Guess which one has an easier time with battlefield conditions like mud and water? 

o   If the gas return tube gets filled with humidity because you deployed in a jungle, and then a bunch of hot gas is pumped through that tube, with unburnt flakes of powder and anything else “in the air”, how long do you think it will take the “average” tube to begin to be blocked and not allow 100% of the air/gas through the tube?  If you guessed “not long” you can advance to the next section.

o   In addition, you are relying on that static gas pressure to slide a Bolt Carrier Group (BCG) that houses the extractor, firing pin and the major locking block to keep the thing from blowing up in your face.  If you add some dirt and grime to the chamber where that BCG has to slide, and you don’t INCREASE the amount of gas pressure being sent there to handle the change?  Guess what happens.  Yeah, it doesn’t cycle and you are left with a weapon that 1) didn’t chamber your next live round, and 2) isn’t ready for a follow up shot.  *bad news*

[Dillinger]

Good read D. Have you fired one?

 

Thanks Double D.

 

Truth be told I worked in a custom gun shop for about 2 years, off and on, while I was between construction contracts.  Yes, most weapons you can mention I have fired personally.  A lot I have worked on personally (we built custom bolt rifles, with a side business of AR and AK builds/enhancements) and there aren't too many out there that I haven't at least held in my hands personally as I am a frequent guest at S.H.O.T. (the largest firearms "sales event" in the world - takes place in Vegas once a year).

[Dillinger]

So which one is “better”?

 

If you want to start a flame war, or an argument, ask this question when you have more than one knowledgeable person in the same place, at the same time.  LOL  There are very few arguments that will go as long, or as hard, as the AR vs AK debate.

 

I personally have both in my safe at home.  But neither is the “standard issue” variety I described above.  As awesome as Mikhail Kalashnikov and Eugene Stoner were in their own times, the world has advanced, technology has advanced, and there are products out there now that were not even considerations in the 40’s and 50’s when this battle was more relevant.

 

Both systems have very strong points to make them the clear choice.  A modern built AK can be just as light as a lot of AR’s and a simple caliber modification to an AR can make it more ferocious on the battle field than a standard AK. 

 

In my opinion, there is no “best answer” to the question of which is better.  I can make them both run (operate, hit what you are aiming at, keep you live), and I can make them both fail, so the theory that one is going to be light years ahead of the other comes down to “in what application”?

 

Reliability always comes up at some point when this is discussed, but it’s a red herring argument.  There is no reason not to be able to put together a 99% reliable version of both platforms, IF you understand how they work and what their strengths and weaknesses are.

[Akic]

Great stuff D-Man.

 

Interesting reading and well written

[fuzzy clam]

I bow to your iron knowledge Dillinger,no bullshit great read and spot on with there is no "best" as both have there strength's and weaknesses.

 

For the AR 15 its parts,accessories,ammo and mags are easily accessible.And the 556 they shoot are accurate and like you said very light recoil and the guns are pretty easy to maintain again accurate and reliable,but must be well cared for and kept clean.But for a combat gun I prefer a piston operated firearm,they do make piston retro fit kits for the guns.

 

On to the AK (74) shoots 545 x 39 and is also accurate and reliable but from a stand point of ammo availability the AR 15 is probably a better choice.

 

But i would take a SCAR H (heavy) over both it's lightweight and a full 308 and you really can't go wrong with the whole 30 cal punch thing.That's a big ugly chunk of 762 lead going down range and people notice,it's loud as hell with the brake on the end of it.

 

But they are all great firearms,fun to shoot and they all look really cool   

[Dirty Dog]

That is impressive D.  Cannot deny you have an extensive knowledge of firearms.  Nice to read a well-written and informative post too.

 

I’ve been around shotguns from an early age. Shot my first, a little .410 bore, when I was about 7 or 8.  I remember it knocked me flat on my ass, scared the shit out of me, and I cried like a kitten for the rest of the day lol.

 

I did a bit of competitive trap shooting in my mid/late teens, but i wouldn't commit to the hours of practice expected.  Besides at that age, I thought women, cars and alcohol were far more important - still do tbh .  Still have my Beretta Sporting clay, and very nice Browning, but have little time to shoot nowadays.  They come out of the cabinet every so often for a clean, and go straight back in.

 

So which one is “better”?

 

If you want to start a flame war, or an argument, ask this question when you have more than one knowledgeable person in the same place, at the same time.  LOL  There are very few arguments that will go as long, or as hard, as the AR vs AK debate.

 

 

I'll try to stoke the fires just a little when the “Vanilla Gorilla”, makes an appearance  

 

[Dillinger]

Thanks guys - You are too kind.  This is a category I have spent a lot of hours reading, discussing, and testing, so I guess it would be my first hobby gone wrong.  

 

@fuzzy - I don't disagree that the RIGHT piston driven rifle is a great choice.  I don't necessarily want to to be running into a firefight with something like an early edition Galil or a stamped knock off of an AK made out of recycled bomb casings and Jeepney bumpers.     My primary is a home built AR with a .300 blackout upper and suppressor, but the whole thing is customized by me, and I have replacement parts in the safe for high use items (extra everything - batteries, pins, springs, extractors, misc furniture parts).

 

A couple of things to factor in, in case anyone reading this is trying to decide which way to go with their "lone" purchase, but having decided it MUST be an AR.  While Piston AR parts are available to swap into an existing gas-impingement model, gas piston systems aren't without their faults.  

• Piston systems are more expensive (some will say you get what you pay for here).  This will probably change more in coming years as the hybrid models become more prevalent in the community, but right now you have a lot of Proprietary models that don't offer interchangeable parts.  One of the nice things about the gas models is 90% plus of the parts are interchangeable (once you eliminate barrel length or specific, oddball calibers like .458 Socom and .450 Bushmaster)
• The parts, specific to this type of operation, aren't as readily available.  Most of the people purchasing one of these models has it in their mind they might need to use it some day.  Like "use it" in the sense of "other than manufacturer driven, glossy pictured, public friendly usage" conditions.  As such, you might want to consider where you are going to get replacement parts should you NEED them.  Think of it as your pet Ferrari, and you just ran into a mechanical issue in the middle of nowhere.     
• Piston driven AR's are a BITCH to retrofit with a suppressor (silencer for those only familiar with the concept through movies and games).  I personally spent about (4) billable, shop hours (which is really about 10 hours R/T) working on retrofitting a very nice home build with retrofit piston kit with a new suppressor from AAC.  Admittedly, I am no expert, which is why I had one working with me and that damn thing was kicking our collective asses.  It would shoot that first round fine, and relatively quiet, but #DamnItMan if we could get it to cycle on anything other than slow, steady, single shots.  Any attempt to "spam the trigger" was an exercise in frustration.  I honestly don't know how Brett, my gunsmith, ended up getting it to run for the guy, but I can say for certain I am not equipped to take on that task again.  LOL

@ Dirty Dog:  Very similar upbringing.  I was shooting NRA (American pro gun lobby and recreational shooting organization) from about the age of 6 or 7.  Beretta and Browning, I see you didn't skimp when it came to choosing some a good gun.  Beretta's old world shotguns have some of the most beautiful engraving and artwork on both their wood and metal components.  Definitely hand me downs that will only increase in value given the state of the UK gun world at the moment.  Keep them well oiled my friend, craftsmanship like those doesn't go out of style.

 

JD

[procreate]

now that is an expensive hobby!

 

all i care about is what is the best gun in a zombie invasion.

 

EDITED: i really wonder especially in the US, does anyone really think one day they will have to "use it"? [thats not a bait question, that is a honest do you think question]

[fuzzy clam]

@ Dillinger i also run the blackout kit and a can,very nice rig.It has a few other add on's also and a blast to shoot.

 

@ procreate yes i believe it could come to having to use my firearms to defend my family and home but not from zombies.More from certain people not wanting citizens to have firearms,think more of a "brown coat" type of thing that goes way back.This is just my opinion on the subject and everyone will have a different view.

[procreate]

do you mean you think you will have to use your gun against people who will come to take them away? Not sure what that means.... But if that means government if that came to pass I don't think guns would work in that situation.

I was thinking more of foreign invasion.

[Sgt-Greco]

Excellent analysis Dillinger.

 

I have only fired a few weapons in the army. G3A3 and FN FAL are two. Both are 7.62X51 NATO assault rifles and AK47 competitors.

Someone told me FN was used in Falkland Islands war. Not sure though. Heavy and "stiff" weapons, but with good stopping power and accuracy.

 

My favorite manufacturer is Heckler and Koch and my all time favorite weapon is MP7.

 

 

 

Beauty 

[Dirty Dog]

 

@ Dirty Dog:  Very similar upbringing.  I was shooting NRA (American pro gun lobby and recreational shooting organization) from about the age of 6 or 7.  Beretta and Browning, I see you didn't skimp when it came to choosing some a good gun.  Beretta's old world shotguns have some of the most beautiful engraving and artwork on both their wood and metal components.  Definitely hand me downs that will only increase in value given the state of the UK gun world at the moment.  Keep them well oiled my friend, craftsmanship like those doesn't go out of style.

 

I have vague memories of the NRA hitting the news over here long time ago. Something to do with Carlton Heston and his, 'from my cold dead hands' speech? I didn't understand all the fuss tbh, not sure it did the NRA a great many favours at the time tho? I do know they have more money than God, and hold some sway over US politics.

 

I was affiliated with CPSA, they ran everything when I was competitive (still do I think), from basic club competition up to Olympic qualifiers.

 

Had a couple hours 'me' time yesterday, so thought I'd give them a clean and get a few pics up.

 

  

 

   Poor phone pics, thought they be better 

 

They're good, clean guns, nothing fancy, but well looked after.  Not quite on par with the cache of WMD, Dillinger and fuzzy have at their disposal lol.  Being from the UK, chances of (legally), owning any equipment discussed in this thread is slim to none, and I heard Slim left town a while back... 

 

now that is an expensive hobby!

 

all i care about is what is the best gun in a zombie invasion.

 

That's basically why I quit comps. Having a shotgun is just the start.  You can burn through cash quickly with all the incidentals involved.  Besides, I was more interested in chasing skirt and racing my bike lol.

 

'When' the zombie invasion starts I'll take the chokes out from the Browning, and use that.  They'll have to be close, but there wont be much left after 

 

Excellent analysis Dillinger.

 

I have only fired a few weapons in the army. G3A3 and FN FAL are two. Both are 7.62X51 NATO assault rifles and AK47 competitors.

Someone told me FN was used in Falkland Islands war. Not sure though. Heavy and "stiff" weapons, but with good stopping power and accuracy.

 

 

I've never shot a pistol or AR, but would love to have a go.  I did shoot a 5 shell automatic shotgun a few times (before they were banned) and remember being really fkin sore for couple days after. 

 

According to wiki, the Argies used 2 variants of the FN FAL.  Surprised at the amount of different weaponry used by both sides.   Brits used lots of things beginning with 'L'?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Falklands_War#Infantry_weapons

 

For anyone who's shot both AR's and shotguns. What AR or calibre bullet has the equivalent kick to a 12 bore?

[fuzzy clam]

Barrett 50 cal LOL  

[Dillinger]

Absolutely beautiful shotguns there Double D!  They look almost brand new!  The engraving done by Beretta in the old days was always something to behold.  I have been told about 80% of guns before (and I forget the date) were actually done as a one-off, hand by hand design.  Amazing craftsmanship.    

 

 

 

For anyone who's shot both AR's and shotguns. What AR or calibre bullet has the equivalent kick to a 12 bore?

 

So Fuzzy nailed the layup, I guess I'll take the outside shot and add some color.

 

For a .12 GAUGE round, to compare against a "Caliber" of rifle round, you have to kind of understand the MESSED UP American measuring system a bit more than the average 5th grader (sorry Mr. Foxworthy, this won't make the broadcast).

 

12 gauge, 16 gauge, 10 gauge, what does it all mean??

 

Gauge:  Believe it or not, all it really means is how many lead balls, that fit down the barrel and are thus "correct gauge", would it take to make a zero balance scale measure one-US pound in weight (16 ounces / .454 kilograms).  If it takes 12 of them to make the scale tip to 1 pound, it's a 12 gauge.  If it takes 16 of them (smaller diameter than the 12) it would be a 16 gauge.  If it only took 8 of them (larger than the 12), it would be an 8 gauge.  Easy right?  LOL  (Note** There is a common exception known as the .410 shotgun and that is measured in the same manner, they just dumped the "number of balls in a weighted model" and called it by it's size.  It is the smallest of most common shotgun rounds.)

 

Now Caliber - It's literally an inside measurement of the barrel, expressed in 1/100th of an inch variants.  Thus a .22 caliber firearm is "effectively" a measurement of 22/100ths of an inch.  a .45, like I favor, is effectively a projectile measuring 45/100ths in diameter.  (**Note to the experienced, I am not going to discuss much about bullet weight 'i.e. grains/overall length' because we have a lot of international readers and I can't speak to the litany of oddball, metric vs NATO vs Standard weights and "old school" rounds out there  )

• What about 9mm, is that measured in millimeters instead?  Yep, You guessed it, it's a projectile that is 9mm in diameter
• What about 7.62 x 51mm vs 7.62 x 39mm?  This deals with the overall size/weight of the projectile and I would PREFER not to go into the specifics, but I can if there is interest.  Short answer, Google it. 

Now equivalent "kick" means you are effectively measuring "perceived energy" felt by the shooter, and this is greatly modified by the weight of the gun in question (**Note to the experienced:  And blue-printing, and muzzle breaks, and recoil dampeners, and a bunch of stuff I am going to exclude for this question).  

 

I'm pretty much out of my depth here, beyond the real world application of "what it felt like to me", but let me see if I can explain.  

• If you have a heavy in "felt" weight gun shooting a light caliber (like a .22 rimfire - the most common "kids/trainer" round), you will experience little to no recoil.  
• If you have a light in "felt" weight gun with a magnum caliber (like a 375 H&H Magnum round that used to rape Africa) you are going to feel like you have been kicked by a mule with an attitude.

 

Shotguns have very little in the way of "working parts".  The barrels are smooth pipes really, and the "firing hardware" is just a few pieces you could hold in one hand.  As such, the real weight of a shotgun comes from the construction metal (steel in the old days, "other" materials today) and the "wood" (stock, hand grip and fore grip).  As they are basically meant for a "walking around the field and doing hunting" type exercises, you will find they usually are lighter weight models.  7-9 pounds (3.18Kg-4.08Kg) is a "standard" that I have seen.

 

AR's, by contrast, have tons of moving parts, but also embrace lightweight construction models like "aircraft" aluminum, and "High Density plastics", to severely limit weight.  I've held AR builds that came in under 6 pounds (2.72Kg), and I have built ones that weighed in close to 15 pounds (6.80Kg).  It all depends on application of the shooter.  

• Do you want to stalk from block to block of a zombie infested town, racking up kills FPS style?  You are going to want a lighter weight build with an effective round.
• Do you want to perch on a rooftop, sit there surveying your kingdom, and have little to zero use of moving?  You are going to want a heavy weight build with a long range "accuracy" type round.

Answer the f*cking question man..... 

 

If I had to spec a rifle that would "simulate" the .12 gauge shotgun experience for an overseas member, here is what I would expect to be close.

 

Caliber:  458 Socom; .458 Bushmaster; .50 Beowulf

Barrel:  16" (406mm)

Muzzle break: None

Stock: A2 fixed (matches shotgun applications)

Ideal gun weight: >8 pounds (3.62Kg)

 

I think that would closely simulate the experience for someone who was used to shooting a 12 gauge.

 

As with EVERYTHING guns - Your mileage or experiences may vary.

 

Hope that helps.

 

JD

[Dillinger]

As for the "best weapon for the zombie*" anything?  I could go on FOR DAYS on this topic, as there really is no real good "one gun and done" solution.  

 

JD

 

*Granted "zombies" mean something entirely different in the circles I have been known to frequent, so it's subjective.

[mcl]

Best weapon for X?  The one you've got and know how to use.

 

(I prefer a Glock 9mm and a home-built AR-15 in 5.56, along with a 12ga shotgun that I haven't yet bought, but will likely be a Mossberg 500 or 590 series)