Billion 7800n usage with R1

[Zennon]

Hi guys.

 

I have read just about every post on here last night and today and i have watched your videos and ItzDansby video on you tube.

 

I am excited for the next batch to become available to us after the new year.

 

I am on standard adsl2+ on Talk Talk LLU fast pathwith 17ms pings usualy rock solid with 2ms jitter at most very happy with that side of things but obviously not happy about how far a field AW match making can take me.

 

I would say though i dont see as much bullet sponging and wtf moments as my friends who have fibre, they live just down the road from me. My cab has just gone live and i have heard about the downfalls of fibre (passive , shared bandwidth , packet queing, deep interleaving) and at the moment i feel like adsl is better for gaming any thoughts on that?

 

Master socket > R1 > Billion 7800n in bridged mode is how i am guessing things will work best, will i have to disable dhcp, upnp and firewall on the 7800n or will the bridged mode sort things with no intervention?

 

Thanks guys.

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Glad to hear you're considering purchasing the R1.

 

On the whole fiber thing, I'll just give you the facts. Fiber gives you 100mbits, which is 100 * million bits per second. A game uses about 20kb which is 20 * thousand bits per second. So just to put that in perspective with 1mbit you could run approximately 50 games. When you buy fiber you're left with a lot of excess bandwidth. Unless someone else is using them, you won't need it.

 

The only difference is transmission delay, that's how fast it goes from your house to the ISP called the last mile. I believe DSL is slightly slower, but a human wouldn't be able to notice it. We're talking sub millisecond here. 

 

A simple analogue may help. Lets say the host is in London and you live in Manchester. For a game you need to drive about 4 people to London and back frequently. For a torrent you need to transfer say 10,000 people as fast as possible from London to you.

 

With your DSL its like having a motorway with 10 lanes, with fiber its like having a motorway with 100 lanes. So for your torrent its good news because loads of cars can run in parallel so you can download quicker. But for your game it makes no difference, all those lanes will go unsused. The key thing to notice is you don't get to London any quicker, the car itself doesn't travel faster. For games what you care about is the ping, the time it takes to get from Manchester to London in this analogue.

 

We have many features to try reduce ping, for example the geo-filter is the one that will make the biggest difference to most people. Instead of driving all the way to say New York, you only drive to London so clearly the time will be a lot less.

 

Hope that analogue helps instead of complicating matter haha! 

 

On to your next question.  I would suggest this:

 

Master Socket -> Billion 7800n -> R1

 

Keep the Billion in bridged mode and you have the optimal set up. 

[Zennon]

Hi Iain,

I know about the traffic analogy but what i was asking is about the way fibre differers e.g dlm that hardly gives out fastpath , and many users since upgrading to fibre tend to go on forums complaining about more laggy, spongy " i am a full second behind"

 

My friends that live here that i clan up with both say they feel behind 90% of the time and i am saying its playing fine here with adsl2+.

Then in 3 bar lobbys they have a good game and its out of sync for me.

 

Thanks for the set up advice i will do that when i get mine

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

I doubt fiber would make it worse, unless there is a misconfiguration issue with the ISP or they have oversubscribed fiber optic.

 

Remember lag is a very subjective thing, and depends on the person and mood they're in. Thats why we added the ping feature, if you don't have an objective ping number to the host its impossible to say.

[Zennon]

Thanks , fingers crossed you have more stock ready soon.

When you "sign up for update's" is it normal not to get a notification email back , i really do not want to miss out on the next batch.

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

No you won't get a notification email. There is just a little box saying you've signed up. Thanks for signing up!  

[Zennon]

Thanks Iain and the rest of your team, we have needed something like this for years, i hope things go from strength to strength on this venture for you guys , things are looking up for us gamers

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Thanks so much for the support Zennon, it really does mean a lot. 

[Buds]

Zennon just on the fibre point, couple of things.

 

Latency on fast path will be near identical (slightly faster on fibre if you are on a long way from your local exchange). But you are right about the difference in DLM. On adsl you could choose to have fast path but sacrifice sync speed. Now DLM will decide the best mix of sync speed and interleaving (or fast path as applicable). Unfortunately if your line won't support fastpath on fibre then nothing you can get ISP to do.

 

Best advice for fibre is pick a service based on your line estimate. What I mean is if your estimate is for 60 down / 15 up then if you choose a 40/10 service you would have more chance of getting on fast path as their would be headroom on your line and less errors.

[Zennon]

Thanks Buds for the info about headroom.

The thing i have read on the net the analogy that fibre is like passing a mic around your neighbours each taking a turn.

quote :

Unless you have a dedicated fiber to your house from your ISP, you're still sharing at the node. Residential fiber fiber uses "passive" fiber. This means you receive all the same data that your neighbors receive. So when your neighbor is watching Netflix, your fiber modem will also be receiving their packets, but filters them out.

The upload on passive fiber is also shared via TDMA. While one person on the local node is uploading data, no one else may upload. This is broken into small time slices so you still get reliable pings. But it's like a bunch of people who want to talk and only one microphone, you just keep passing it around the circle and let each person talk a little at a time.

So really, that 1gb of bandwidth is shared at the node.

 

Is this true anyone?

 

Link to said convo

 

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/35082-42-fiber-optic-cable-internet



 

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Its been a long time since I've research modulation tech. But what said sounds about right, I know cable works that way. I won't worry about that, you're sweating the milliseconds/microseconds its completely unnoticeable unless the ISP has screwed up badly. 

 

Simplest test is ping 8.8.8.8, if its < 40ms you have no complaints on your first mile. 

[BigBen]

Like I posted before, cod:aw is doing something really strange, if you saturate your line it plays better than when you are not downloading. I have a friend with a much bigger pipe and he complaining a lot more than I do, in previous cod's it was not playable at all when I downloading at the same time.

 

I have no other conclusion than really buggy net code in cod:aw

[Zennon]

At the moment its 17ms via 8.8.8.8 i would hate to switch and have troubles when its working really well for near host matches as it is.

 

Thats why i am in two minds and asking questions , i think i will stick with what i have for a while , the though of crosstalk and bad latency i read about scares me as my main reason for bb is gaming, download speed does not bother me.

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Personally I wouldn't upgrade. People find this strange given my profession but I'm very much of the philosophy "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

[TheGreatDansby]

Like I posted before, cod:aw is doing something really strange, if you saturate your line it plays better than when you are not downloading. I have a friend with a much bigger pipe and he complaining a lot more than I do, in previous cod's it was not playable at all when I downloading at the same time.

 

I have no other conclusion than really buggy net code in cod:aw

 

Its probably because he's bottlenecking while playing, it's a common thing while gaming with high bandwidth. The anti flood feature in the netduma aka the easiest QoS ever, helps to decrease the frequency of that happening

[Scythe]

Great information in the post. I have the  Billion 7800n but on BT infinity 2 using BT Openreach VDSL Model (ECI model B-FOCuS V-2FUb/I Rev.B.

 

Can't wait get an Netduma R1 Gaming Router, then gaming on COD will be fair instead of playing with host the other side of the planet.  I would also like to reiterate what Zennon has said and thank Iain and the rest of your team. I have been waiting for this tech for some time. Just think you guys may of just saved the gaming experience for many people. I hope everything works out and you become the market leader's.

[Scythe]

Glad to hear you're considering purchasing the R1.

 

On the whole fiber thing, I'll just give you the facts. Fiber gives you 100mbits, which is 100 * million bits per second. A game uses about 20kb which is 20 * thousand bits per second. So just to put that in perspective with 1mbit you could run approximately 50 games. When you buy fiber you're left with a lot of excess bandwidth. Unless someone else is using them, you won't need it.

 

The only difference is transmission delay, that's how fast it goes from your house to the ISP called the last mile. I believe DSL is slightly slower, but a human wouldn't be able to notice it. We're talking sub millisecond here. 

 

A simple analogue may help. Lets say the host is in London and you live in Manchester. For a game you need to drive about 4 people to London and back frequently. For a torrent you need to transfer say 10,000 people as fast as possible from London to you.

 

With your DSL its like having a motorway with 10 lanes, with fiber its like having a motorway with 100 lanes. So for your torrent its good news because loads of cars can run in parallel so you can download quicker. But for your game it makes no difference, all those lanes will go unsused. The key thing to notice is you don't get to London any quicker, the car itself doesn't travel faster. For games what you care about is the ping, the time it takes to get from Manchester to London in this analogue.

 

We have many features to try reduce ping, for example the geo-filter is the one that will make the biggest difference to most people. Instead of driving all the way to say New York, you only drive to London so clearly the time will be a lot less.

 

Hope that analogue helps instead of complicating matter haha! 

 

On to your next question.  I would suggest this:

 

Master Socket -> Billion 7800n -> R1

 

Keep the Billion in bridged mode and you have the optimal set up. 

 

 

 

Iain,

 

I have the  Billion 7800n but on BT infinity 2 using BT Openreach VDSL Model (ECI model B-FOCuS V-2FUb/I Rev.B.

 

Would this be the same:  Master Socket -> Billion 7800n -> R1?

 

I have placed the Billion in bridged mode.

 

Nothing working.

 

Guess I wanted to keep the Billion due to the wi-fi signal being great.

 

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Ok right I think you may need pppoe, did the Billion have pppoe setup when you used it? 

 

If you need pppoe you'll need to upgrade.

 

EDIT: I just saw your prior post, thank-you so much for the kind words. Looking forward to your feedback

[abc123]

you'll love fiber...depending on about 100 things...

 

It is important to remember that your ISP doesn't own all the highways...in Iain's example, so there is normally added latency when switching from backbone to backbone.

[Zennon]

Ive got my Netduma up and running with the 7800n it does not work if i bridge it or mess with any settings.

 

Just my normal billion config then plugged into the Netduma all is well and open nat on AW.

 

Time for some gaming thanks guys.

[Scythe]

Cheers Zennon,

 

Got it up and running now

 

Guess it's like a switch with wi-fi.

 

Thanks

[Zennon]

Hi guys if i put the 7800n internal i.p into the dmz i get open nat in game in AW. if i put the netduma ip 192.168.88.1 is stays moderate.

 

Is it safe to put the billion in DMZ in this set up?

 

Wall > Billion > Netduma

 

If not how do i find the internal address of the Netduma?

Thanks.

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Hi Zennon, 

 

Not sure I follow. In that setup the Billlion should put the Netduma in its DMZ. If you're on version 1.02.3 and above you can go to "Device Manager" and  at the top of the page you'll see "WAN IP". That is the Netduma's IP, you need to put that in the Billions DMZ.

[Zennon]

Hi Iain , i said i put the billions internal ip in its own dmz which gives me open nat which i am worried is a security risk, i am on Netduma firmware 1.02.2

[faulko]

Ive got my Netduma up and running with the 7800n it does not work if i bridge it or mess with any settings.

 

Just my normal billion config then plugged into the Netduma all is well and open nat on AW.

 

Time for some gaming thanks guys.

I spent 4hrs this afternoon trying to get a 7800n and 7800nxl into bridge mode and get it all working.

 

I got no where except extreme blood pressure.

 

We had the same result.

 

Just set it up like normal, put Duma in 7800n dmz and away you go. If you want wifi control with duma disable wifi on the billion and enable on the Duma.

 

That way all traffic is controlled with duma's functions.