Could p2p and dedicated servers be using different matchmaking criteria?

[shantzonpoint]

I'm sure many of you have read or experienced the issue (and resolution) for the NAT type being strict (in game) when using the Netduma.  It took some help from Iain to bypass my upstream router but he got it for me.  My current configuration is modem>Linksys Router>Netduma R1>XB1/PC. It's not ideal but it was the easiest way to get it working quickly.

 

Anyway when I first got my router I plugged it in and the NAT type was stuck on strict (in game).  I was playing with my nephew the first night and we both had a great time.  Every game played flawless.  We were stoked at how good it felt compared to pre-netduma.  I was annoyed a little because I couldn't get my NAT type off of strict and we were bouncing out of like 8-10 matches before finally joining one.  Not a huge deal but annoying none the less.   That evening (last Thursday) is when I got in touch with Netduma about it and Iain bypassed my upstream router so it would show open in game (if I disable the geofilter before launching).  This would help with us getting booted out of lobbies. If you remember, last Thursday also happened to be the same day the new AW patch came out.  

 

We played the next day(with NAT type open) and it indeed helped with getting booted out of lobbies.  We would only bounce out of a few before finding a game.  However, the games felt inconsistent and didn't play quite as well as it did the night before.  I was pretty frustrated.  I figured the new patch really screwed up the game.  The next day my nephew texted me about the NAT type being different.  I told him I didn't think it would matter but we could try it strict again that evening.

 

So I made sure my geofilter was on before launching the game so the NAT to be set to strict.  Wouldn't you know it, the games played really good again all night for both of us.  So now I'm thinking there is something to this.  I sent a pm to Iain explaining my discovery and to get his thoughts to whether it's possible the NAT type can effect gameplay or if I'm just suffering from placebo effect.  More on this later.

 

During the weekend I decided to switch the NAT from open to strict on several different occasions.  I never told my nephew when I was going to do it (just to see if he would notice).  I kept track of kills/deaths, host location, pings, # of times I got booted before finding a host, number of available hosts, and little notes about each game.  By the the end of the day on Sunday I came up with:

 

                                       NAT Strict                        NAT Open

 

Games played:                       44                                   37

Available hosts (avg.):           12.4                                 40+

Times booted (avg.):              7.2                                 2.6

K/D:                                   2.13                                1.45

Pings  (avg.):                      44ms                               41ms

Geofilter:                           840km                             840km

Locations:                          Varied                   80% New York/Boston

 

It was uncanty how my nephew would say something like "man, I'm way behind a couple guys in here." within a few rounds with the NAT type open.......lol.

 

Now I talked to Iain on Monday night while we were updated my software to the new patch.  He assured me that the NAT type would not effect gameplay or connection speeds and explained why.  Of course I believe him since he knows way more than I do about networking so I let it rest.  But then my wheels started turning again later that evening.  I figured there has to be some type of logic to the numbers.  Then a light bulb went on and I came up with a new theory.

 

I think what might be happening is when the NAT type is set to strict, I'm trying to connect to dedicated servers but my router is rejecting them (maybe because type of IP?).  So I keep getting booted in and out until I land in a P2P server.  These are the games that seem to play very consistent for me. 

 

With the NAT type set to open, I can join the dedicated servers and these are the games that play so-so.  Now it's not like the dedi games all suck because they don't.  Majority play fine but there will be times that at least a couple guys are clearly ahead of me.  

 

Could p2p hosts go by connections more than skill and dedi's focus more on skill than connection?  

 

I could have this flip/flopped but I don't think so.  80% of the games with the NAT type open are hosted in the New York/Boston area.  I'm assuming this is where a main hub for the dedicated servers are located?

 

This is by no means scientific proof........lol.  These are only my observations.  I thought I'd throw it out there for conversation purposes.  Maybe I'm crazy, it's an extreme coincedence, or I'm subconciously focusing harder with it set on strict, I don't know.  I'm only going by what my eyes see and what the numbers say.  

 

Unfortunately (for me anyway) since the new patch update and us reporting anytime we get booted, I have no idea if I'm in a p2p or a dedicated server (assuming my theory is accurate).  I will say the white list is indeed working because I haven't gotten booted from a lobby for quite some time now.

 

Iain and Adam may come in here and completely blow this up but that's ok, I'd really like to hear their thoughts on this.  

[Elikenui]

Hmmm... Don't know if there's any difference in the mm criteria between a p2p host vs dedi. But there can definitely be a difference in host quality between p2p hosts. Just because the host is within your selected radius and the ping is good doesn't mean that the quality of the connection will be very good, but at least you've given yourself a better chance of finding a quality host since the latency is low. You could connect to a p2p host that is right next door to you and have a horrible game experience because he's got multiple people in the house streaming movies, torrents, porn, etc... or uploading their family photos to their photosharing site. Probably it would be best to take note of when you get a "good host" and give them a high rating in the duma interface, to increase your chances of getting them as a host again, then whether they are a dedi or p2p won't make any meaningful difference for you when you're playing.

[TheGreatDansby]

I've honestly had a very similar experience. On the white listed dedis the game plays pretty poorly, I feel I'm very far behind my opponents regardless of ping

[BigBen]

interesting! I really see no logic but I agree the game is doing something quirky. I posted before that when I saturate my line fully I have great games, which is absolutely insane and has no logic in it at all (other than lag compensation). The net code for cod:aw is just awfull.

[roads]

Could it be on dedis the Duma has nothing to say who connects and who not?

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Sorry I haven't read the whole post, because

1. Its Christmas & I'm being lazy
2. I've never been one to ruin a good #conspiracy 

I propose we call this conspiracy #DediGate, unless anyone can think of anything better ha!

 

On a more serious note, the new update may have included game servers out of your location. We have purposefully hidden white-listed servers on the map so users cannot deny them and ruin their game. I think what's happening to you guys is that you're playing on servers far away because they are white-listed. 

 

I'm going to do another update where only people with for lack of a better word "Admin Rights" can see white-listed servers. If its large white circle you're playing then that server should not be on the whitelist. If you click a button next to the ping it will report that to us and within 4 hours it will be off the list. 

[roads]

 

1. I've never been one to ruin a good #conspiracy 

 

LOL was fun though.

[TheGreatDansby]

That makes a list of sense. Thanks Lain!!!!

[shantzonpoint]

These stats were accumulated before the white list was started.  Let me rephrase that, they were accumulated before I received the latest patch to help report.    Since I've started helping report servers, It's impossible to tell if I'm in a p2p or dedi (assuming my original theory was correct) because I don't get booted out of lobbies anymore no matter what my NAT is set at..

 

I will say I've only played maybe 10 rounds since the white list came out.  I haven't been booted out of one server (nice job guys!) and all the games played good.  Like I said before though, it's not like all the games that were on dedicated servers played bad because they didn't.

 

Before I got my netduma, I would say 50% of the games played good for me.  Since playing after the netduma, with the NAT open, I'd say 80% of the games played good.  With the NAT strict it was around 90%.  Again these are my observations.  It could be be a regional thing and nobody in the UK, Australia, or even other regions of the US might not see the same thing. I'm not making this up though.  The games just felt a twinge better for some reason.  

 

I don't expect you guys at netduma to spend resources confirming/denying this "theory".  I know you have way bigger fish to fry.  It was just my observations/stats.  I posted it for discussion purposes and to get your input if there is any possible logic to it?  

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

Sorry shantzonpoint I didn't mean to come off like I was shooting you down. I don't know if you read elsewhere but I'll never comment on game specific netcode. All we do is try to reduce the latency the ONLY cause(definition?) of lag. 

[EffinFancy]

I feel like I'm experiencing more three bar connections after the last firmware update (with smaller geo-filter range), whereas before, I consistently received 4 bars and my geo-filter range was larger.  What if we want to blacklist a whitelisted server?  There's one in Seattle that I knew I connected to during the prior firmware usage that I would receive around a 60ms ping. I would also connect to one in the midwest and get around the 20ms range with that server, but I loved playing on it.  I'm suspecting i'm connecting to the seattle server more so now than before.  

[shantzonpoint]

Sorry shantzonpoint I didn't mean to come off like I was shooting you down. I don't know if you read elsewhere but I'll never comment on game specific netcode. All we do is try to reduce the latency the ONLY cause(definition?) of lag. 

 

Oh no you didn't come across that way at all.     I'm just curious how the matchmaking works and whether p2p is using different criteria (latency more than skill) compared to dedicated servers.  It's meant to be for discussion purposes and not "hey, lets find a way to manipulate the system".     

[faulko]

 I'm just curious how the matchmaking works and whether p2p is using different criteria (latency more than skill) compared to dedicated servers.  It's meant to be for discussion purposes and not "hey, lets find a way to manipulate the system".     

Warning, im severly hung over, my ramblings may not make sense.

 

That im aware of and im also 99.9% sure its all 1 system, no different coding for private party, lan or online. What the game does with hit detection etc is all the same.

 

Creating lobbies on location first will never work properly, it should in theory but it doesnt always work like that.

 

I have the netduma, yep its smooth but its still laggy as hell most games, if not worse then before depending on geo filter size.

 

Alot of varibles come into play with AW and location isnt the main culprit but its a band of many issues built into the game.

 

Reason? well wire/interent path could be 1 reason, its possible that you could ping a neighbour at 100ms but your mate 2 towns away at 50ms. Especially if you use the same isp as your mate but not your neighbour. If the game host is on a different network to you then your in trouble form the start.

 

Think about that for a second and imagine how your packets flow through the internet to its destination. If your packets need to hop multiple networks thats even worse again and all this moving adds ms of time to a host, hence property distance isnt the killer.

 

Setting the geo filter too small can hurt your chances at finding quality games as we assume distance is the killer, its not helping but its not the main culprit, well not with AW atleast anyway, but i assume most online mp games.

 

Another can be line quality, either natural or deliberate where the game see's the pings, makes lobbies then for what ever reason someone or multiple players pings change during game play making the lobby now buggered no matter what you do.

 

Honestly had this game been based on ping to host based, then skill as a secondary, id say alot of online issues could be afferted.

 

Another thing i noticed with help of the geo filter map was when your first joining lobbies the host isnt decided till the games about to start. Once the counter stops and the game is in transition the geo filter shows me trying to connect all over the world before deciding on a lobby member to host.

 

A lobby should be made with a host in mind and the quality of which the players can connect to that host. Not the host is decided based on the quality of the connections in the lobby.

 

Hope the festive season is kind to you all.

[Guest Netduma_Iain]

EffinFancy, don't worry we have the issue under control. I'll explain all very soon.

 

Faulko you're mostly correct. However you in particular have a very bad connection. We need to run some tests and figure out what is going on. Because nearly everyone(prepatch I'll explain all) who connected to local hobbies was having an amazing ping the majority of the time.

 

I think there is some local issue or some device is making you lag. Could you start a new thread please and I'll start giving you tests you can run so we can identify why you in particular are having a bad connection. Hopefully its not the ISP, in which case the R1 will be able to help. However if it is the ISP we can generate a report and send it to them proving they are giving you subpar service. 

[faulko]

EffinFancy, don't worry we have the issue under control. I'll explain all very soon.

 

Faulko you're mostly correct. However you in particular have a very bad connection. We need to run some tests and figure out what is going on. Because nearly everyone(prepatch I'll explain all) who connected to local hobbies was having an amazing ping the majority of the time.

 

I think there is some local issue or some device is making you lag. Could you start a new thread please and I'll start giving you tests you can run so we can identify why you in particular are having a bad connection. Hopefully its not the ISP, in which case the R1 will be able to help. However if it is the ISP we can generate a report and send it to them proving they are giving you subpar service. 

Im scared you know i have a bad connection . But im willing to try anything these days.

 

1 of my issues is the lastest overseas cable breaking for my isp international link. My isp has had to divert a tonne of traffic from the west to the east coast and now i have a rediculous trace route as i mentioned before.

 

I know its only 8/1mb but thats the adsl in Aus when im about 3.2kms from my exchange. Never really had any serious issues with online play except for BO1, that game was retarded for me.

 

My main grip:

 

1) The way the game AW is designed, by default it was designed with ms timing way off, i dont know what they were trying to achieve. I had a feeling something wasnt right from the very start of this game and then my attention was drawn to this:

 

 

just as i started similar testing (although no doubt less comprehensive) in a lan party and this guy is right with AW, the game has a base lag/difference of 100ms give or take before a game even starts. Ive since watched his other videos and i have to agree with his findings 100%

 

 2) The very notion that SHG and Activision fail to see or dont understand whats going on with MP but i think they know and the care factor is zero or minimal at best. Trying to kill off cod maybe?

 

What happens to the data center i try to connect to during came play, i can see a constant ip address on my router connecting to Dublin. I know who it is and why but if my geo filter doesnt fit this ip in my circle does the data still get sent or is a connection allowed?