shantzonpoint Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Lain and Adam, I know from posts on this board and others you have have a good knowledge and theories of what lag is and what causes it. I know you're really busy with launch stuff, but when you get some free time, I'd love to hear you're in depth thoughts, ideas, and theories behind lag. Things like what causes insta-deaths, bullet absorption, lag comp (I know you hate that term), netcode, host lag, etc. etc. It would be interesting (for me at least) to learn the idea behind these and what they are supposed to do. Also how latency, upload, and download speeds can effect it. Almost like a blog if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Lain and Adam, I know from posts on this board and others you have have a good knowledge and theories of what lag is and what causes it. I know you're really busy with launch stuff, but when you get some free time, I'd love to hear you're in depth thoughts, ideas, and theories behind lag. Things like what causes insta-deaths, bullet absorption, lag comp (I know you hate that term), netcode, host lag, etc. etc. It would be interesting (for me at least) to learn the idea behind these and what they are supposed to do. Also how latency, upload, and download speeds can effect it. Almost like a blog if you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Lain and Adam, I know from posts on this board and others you have have a good knowledge and theories of what lag is and what causes it. I know you're really busy with launch stuff, but when you get some free time, I'd love to hear you're in depth thoughts, ideas, and theories behind lag. Things like what causes insta-deaths, bullet absorption, lag comp (I know you hate that term), netcode, host lag, etc. etc. It would be interesting (for me at least) to learn the idea behind these and what they are supposed to do. Also how latency, upload, and download speeds can effect it. Almost like a blog if you will. seriously though.. you can't go wrong with watching Drit0rs lag comp video.. all the info came directly from one of the devs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyCQtUFOJmA That will give you a better understand of what the effects of latency are in game . But bear in mind every game handles its netcode differently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shantzonpoint Posted December 17, 2014 Author Share Posted December 17, 2014 I would do a blog. Something us Neanderthals cannot reply too......lol. It would be an interesting read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EffinFancy Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 With the utmost of respect to yourself and please do not take it personally , I have removed this link. I want this forum to be a place where everyone is free to say and post what they like (within reason). But the video you linked is full of factually incorrect information which has plagued the cod community since he started making these things. -Adam ^^^Another link discussing lag compensation that I believe drift0r may have gained inspiration from. This guy's voice is very soothing and may put you to sleep, but extremely informative. Check out his other in-depth vids as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Netduma_Iain Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Hi, I'd really like to do a proper blog one of these days. With most things in networking, the devil is in the details but I can give a quick high-level overview. Basically a game is trying to give the impression that all players are in the same world. Only issue is when you do something there is a delay, called the ping. So that's the time it takes for a packet to go from your home to the games server/host and back again. So put simply when you perform an action, it has to go to the server and the server has to tell all the other players you did that. For the shared world to be consistent with everyone the ping value has to be as low as possible. Problems arise when the ping value gets large, why? The delay means things start to happen that are impossible, I think they're often referred to as paradoxes in game dev speak. So for example, imagine the following events occur in sequence : You have a good ping(say 30ms) and are standing out in the open You realise that being in the open isn't a good idea so you take cover I have a bad ping(say 250ms) and by the time you've taken cover I still haven't recieved the packet that you have taken cover I shoot you So now we have a paradox, you are apparently behind a wall and I swear I shot you in the open. What do we do? Well it literally is a paradox there is no right answer. So this is where the next layer comes in. The game has to decide who wins, and that's a very difficult task. I think that is what the community refers to when they say lag comp. The point is WHATEVER the game developer does people will complain because there is an inherent paradox and someone has to lose unfairly. Now, this is a case of do as I say not as I do. But you should take a step back and marvel at the feat of engineering to even give us a chance to play together around the world. The reality is I rage hard at lag thats why I dedicated a large chunk of my 20s to it haha! Hope that helps, Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilstone87 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Well if my world, guy with the high ping should always lose LOL. That's why I find it important game dev's making FPS games, shouldn't be basing all modes on a SBMM system. Because with AW this is a big issue imho, and a lot of players are suffering due to distance between 8-12 players in one lobby. I understand having a SBMM mode, and AW has that with there ranked playlist, that supports competitive rules, and modes that pro players play. Like you said though Iain, there is never gonna be a perfect solution, but they're things you can do to minimize issue's, and improve thing's for everyone. AW's setup currently is one of the worst out of all previous online cod's, and I am not saying that based off anyone's opinion, only mine. I have played every cod game from cod 4(played it on pc) till now, and I probably put around a couple hundred hours on avg on all of them. Also I feel with SBMM it is more of the dev's trying to please the lesser skilled players playing cod, and I understand it to a point. Still you can do this, without having the whole system support it. Plus if the Ranked playlist is really setup correctly, it will support players of all skilled based. I know I am a little long in the tooth discussing this, but between this, and scorestreak's like System Hack. It really make me question the frame of mind, some of these dev's come up with in there mind when making a video game. I am in no way trying to sound like the angry gamer either, bashing dev's. As I am always respectful of others, so you will never see me trying to personally bash any dev, like you see daily on the internet. From the internet tough guy's, we like to call them. Anyways enough with this post already, time to go eat, and get ready to league bowl tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Netduma_Iain Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Hi Scott, I really can't comment on what developers do, because I personally think they do a astounding job. There are so many factors, its not just lag comp. They need to get you a game quick or you'll be annoyed. You don't want complete noobs, etc there are many constraints and matchmaking in itself is a ridiculously hard problem. Especially when dealing with such large number of concurrent people searching. I don't play CoD either but as with most things in engineering, when you gain something you usually pay for it somewhere else, everything is a trade-off. So if you give the low-ping person 100% advantage you get the other side of the coin which believe me is probably even more frustrating. One guy cruises around in god mode and you can't touch him aka an absolute warrior. Anyway, before we get deep into a back and forth I need to let you know I will NEVER discuss the specifics of a particular game in terms of lag in this forum. Sorry, don't mean to be rude but I'm not here to bash any developer or game. All we do at Netduma is try to optimise YOUR connection. Iain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilstone87 Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 Well what YOU need to do is try, and optimise that brain function, with some proper sleep Anyways I would hope, no one here would expect you to bash any dev's. Because if you did, I would have to recommend a new line of work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted December 17, 2014 Share Posted December 17, 2014 You are a VERY WISE MAN!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abc123 Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 So let's say we've all taken algebra: As Iain mentioned there are a lot of variables to consider (around 15). You then have to deal with these variables for each user (12 users). But it isn't as simple as 15 * 12 to get the answer you have to calculate every permutation, which means (15 * 12)!...all this said just to tell you that this would be a simplified formula for host calculation, migration, lag compensation, etc. This isn't easy stuff guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LtRoyalshrimp Posted December 18, 2014 Share Posted December 18, 2014 Most of this lag comp stuff and discussion: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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