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N3CR0

Ghost Gamer Broadband ISP

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I wonder if these ISPs actually do anything differently from a normal ISP? The only thing I can think that they MAY do is to route their customers packets through the quickest/most direct route rather than the most cost effective. Still, they probably don't have all that much control. If it's anything like the mobile market, a smaller operator will just piggyback off a bigger one.

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5 minutes ago, Netduma Alex said:

I wonder if these ISPs actually do anything differently from a normal ISP? The only thing I can think that they MAY do is to route their customers packets through the quickest/most direct route rather than the most cost effective. Still, they probably don't have all that much control. If it's anything like the mobile market, a smaller operator will just piggyback off a bigger one.

They bang on about being able to give you a low ping at all times so 'maybe' its their own network or they using someone elses but with better routing.

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37 minutes ago, Zennon said:

First line of their blurb.....

Fast broadband speeds are a key part of online gaming success.

😏

Considering they're not the cheapest, thought they might have something different going for them like better routing since they claim to give you low ping at all times.

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8 minutes ago, Zennon said:

I have low ping with 1ms of jitter from the one cheapest BB providers out there.

 

Still on TT? Was thinking of checking them out at end of contract. Faster speeds and cheaper than BT.

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16 minutes ago, N3CR0 said:

Still on TT? Was thinking of checking them out at end of contract. Faster speeds and cheaper than BT.

Yeah still on TT, very happy.

I do not know what their routers are like as I never touch ISP routers.

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1 hour ago, Zennon said:

Yeah still on TT, very happy.

I do not know what their routers are like as I never touch ISP routers.

I'd probably still be able to use my OpenWRT BT HH5 otherwise no deal.

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Low ping and stable ISP connection matter or you will get random hit markers. My friend used to play with R1 with Telia and had a blast. I recently changed from Comhem to Telia and noticed an improvement in connection. I have the same ping as Comhem but the comhem servers seemed overloaded at nights even with low ping i coundt play. I used to trace my connection and noticed the comhem servers having huge ping spikes. Telia servers are more stable. Try to fix your settings if it dosnt help and if you still have random hit detection, change your isp.

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On 2/4/2020 at 5:45 PM, Netduma Alex said:

I wonder if these ISPs actually do anything differently from a normal ISP? The only thing I can think that they MAY do is to route their customers packets through the quickest/most direct route rather than the most cost effective. Still, they probably don't have all that much control. If it's anything like the mobile market, a smaller operator will just piggyback off a bigger one.

Most just add traffic priority and charge a huge amount of money for the privilege, Alex. Its only a tenner to do with IDNet but tbh does bugger all really, its meant to prioritise packets though the network ahead of others unless they have traffic priority I assume, but so many other factors play into it, I tried it and noticed no change at all so after 30 days went back (the joys of a 30 day rolling contract ISP).

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On 2/22/2020 at 1:29 PM, Killhippie said:

Most just add traffic priority and charge a huge amount of money for the privilege, Alex. Its only a tenner to do with IDNet but tbh does bugger all really, its meant to prioritise packets though the network ahead of others unless they have traffic priority I assume, but so many other factors play into it, I tried it and noticed no change at all so after 30 days went back (the joys of a 30 day rolling contract ISP).

Interesting...

Do you think such prioritization would run afoul of net neutrality laws?

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On 2/4/2020 at 5:45 PM, Netduma Alex said:

I wonder if these ISPs actually do anything differently from a normal ISP? The only thing I can think that they MAY do is to route their customers packets through the quickest/most direct route rather than the most cost effective. Still, they probably don't have all that much control. If it's anything like the mobile market, a smaller operator will just piggyback off a bigger one.

Hi Alex,

Yes, we do operate differently to other ISPs. In respect to latency, we place all services that migrate to us on the Openreach NGA “SPEED” profile or “STANDARD” for WBC connections. This will prioritise speed over stability for online gamers and we do see a reduction in latency and an uplift in speed on circuits. In our experience, this is in part due to the fact the previous ISP (ISP dependant) will have had the line on a profile designed for stability from our experience. On our network we have our own blend of peering and transit. We are connected to both LANs on the LINX exchange and have manual sessions with most of the CDN networks who carry majority of the AAA game title traffic. All our core links within the network are a minimum of 10Gbps with a redundant hardware configuration. All our network is monitored in-house with over 2000 sensor points and pre-set thresholds for alerting and corrective action. We are always reviewing the network and happily take feedback from users for where we can improve an experience.

When things do go wrong (and they do) we don’t work to scripts! We are all UK based and understand faults are frustrating. Due to this we take a personal approach to each issue and its assigned to a dedicated support agent.

Happy to answer any questions people may have.

Ghost.

 

Edited by Netduma Alex
Corrected the formatting (message was in a quote box)

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21 minutes ago, Ghost Gamer Broadband said:

Hi Alex,

Yes, we do operate differently to other ISPs. In respect to latency, we place all services that migrate to us on the Openreach NGA “SPEED” profile or “STANDARD” for WBC connections. This will prioritise speed over stability for online gamers and we do see a reduction in latency and an uplift in speed on circuits. In our experience, this is in part due to the fact the previous ISP (ISP dependant) will have had the line on a profile designed for stability from our experience. On our network we have our own blend of peering and transit. We are connected to both LANs on the LINX exchange and have manual sessions with most of the CDN networks who carry majority of the AAA game title traffic. All our core links within the network are a minimum of 10Gbps with a redundant hardware configuration. All our network is monitored in-house with over 2000 sensor points and pre-set thresholds for alerting and corrective action. We are always reviewing the network and happily take feedback from users for where we can improve an experience.

When things do go wrong (and they do) we don’t work to scripts! We are all UK based and understand faults are frustrating. Due to this we take a personal approach to each issue and its assigned to a dedicated support agent.

Happy to answer any questions people may have.

Ghost.

Thanks very much for this info!

When you say that you prioritize speed over stability, what does "stability" refer to?

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I always go for stability over width (speed) as your base ping is the same whatever width you sync at unless DLM puts you on interleaving. So I would be asking the same question as Alex.

 

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21 hours ago, Netduma Alex said:

Interesting...

Do you think such prioritization would run afoul of net neutrality laws?

As its a BT Wholesale feature also used by some third party backhaul providers too in the UK I would not think so, its really a business tool farmed out to gamers and its been around for years.

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11 hours ago, Zennon said:

I always go for stability over width (speed) as your base ping is the same whatever width you sync at unless DLM puts you on interleaving. So I would be asking the same question as Alex.

 

Most lines are set for speed as the default profile which bizarrely is called standard by ISPs, followed by stable and super stable. I think Sky do it differently.

1. Aggressive Standard Speed Prioritise speed over stability for online gamers
2. Normal Stable Standard Best overall balance between speed and stability
3. Stable Super Stable Stable Prioritise stability over speed for IPTV
  Custom (SIN 472)   Allows a CP to specify the thresholds which DLM will manage the line towards.

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If by this they mean fast path then that is good for gamers but speed (bandwidth) over connection quality is not.

They should say ping and not speed if that is what they mean.

 

 

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On 2/25/2020 at 9:09 AM, Zennon said:

If by this they mean fast path then that is good for gamers but speed (bandwidth) over connection quality is not.

They should say ping and not speed if that is what they mean.

 

 

No its not really about fastpath as such as far as I know, its about profiles which are based on SNR the and DLM controlling that, standard (speed) works fine  I'm with IDNet and have been on standard (pretty much default for most ISPs) and I get 7ms pings to London and 30ms to Frankfurt and sync at 57Mbps down and 17.45 up, that in reality is about 53Mbps at the router down and 16Mbs up. With the typical VDSL2 interference from crosstalk knocking 10Mbps off my throughput since I first got FTTC in 2013. These settings are typically something the user does not know about, if your line becomes unstable and flaps they would put you on stable increasing your SNR and reducing throughput, super stable is very slow, my old ADSL2 line had that put on to stop it flapping and my SNR went up to to 20db and my throughput though the floor, line still flapped due to REIN sadly. FTTC cured that.

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1 hour ago, Killhippie said:

No its not fastpath, you get that on all profiles which are based on SNR the and DLM controlling that, standard (speed) works fine  I'm with IDNet and have been on standard (pretty much default for most ISPs) and I get 7ms pings to London and 30ms to Frankfurt and sync at 57Mbps down and 17.45 up, that in reality is about 53Mbps at the router down and 16Mbs up. With the typical VDSL2 interference from crosstalk knocking 10Mbps off my throughput since I first got FTTC in 2013. These settings are typically something the user does not know about, if your line becomes unstable and flaps they would put you on stable increasing your SNR and reducing throughput, super stable is very slow, my old ADSL2 line had that put on to stop it flapping and my SNR went up to to 20db and my throughput though the floor, line still flapped due to REIN sadly. FTTC cured that.

Hi Killhippie,

Our experience of taking over lines from the bigger well-known providers is that, they typically have services on a Stable or Standard profile depending if WBC or GEA (sometimes higher). These profiles have different tolerances for error counters that will trigger DLM to react in pre-set ways (interleaving, error correction, G.INP, SNR .ect) as I’m sure you aware.

Most of the lines we migrate benefit from a change in profile. There are of course some that are on the "edge" and we take the time to review these on a case by case basis.

Where changes have been made, we have at times uncovered a line fault that has been masked by the profile which we have subsequently had resolved.

Our aim is to get the best possible service / experience for the end user.   

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That's fair enough killhippie but to say no to what I said is not what you proceeded to then tell me.

Thanks for the correct explanation Ghost.

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So "stability" refers to a profile which prioritizes IPTV traffic above all else? I can see why this profile would be useful for many people, and I can also see how it would be detrimental for gamers.

Many people with low bandwidth connections have found that they experience very high ping when gaming, but only when somebody else in the house is using Netflix or iPlayer. This latency also seems quite resistant to anti-bufferbloat measures. The widespread use of this stable profile could explain why this occurs.

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14 minutes ago, Netduma Alex said:

So "stability" refers to a profile which prioritizes IPTV traffic above all else? I can see why this profile would be useful for many people, and I can also see how it would be detrimental for gamers.

Many people with low bandwidth connections have found that they experience very high ping when gaming, but only when somebody else in the house is using Netflix or iPlayer. This latency also seems quite resistant to anti-bufferbloat measures. The widespread use of this stable profile could explain why this occurs.

Hi Alex,

A “stable” (option 3) profile would result in the profile tolerances being lowered. This would have the affect of dropping sync speed, applying error correction or interleaving earlier should the line breach the pre-set DLM thresholds.

We use this profile where stability is required such as a line that’s dropping sync due to crosstalk or interface. (anything excessive and we would report as a line fault) But there are some scenarios where having a line operating with a large amount of “overhead” is preferred, such as VoIP where “uptime” is more critical.

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On 2/25/2020 at 11:00 AM, Zennon said:

That's fair enough killhippie but to say no to what I said is not what you proceeded to then tell me.

Thanks for the correct explanation Ghost.

I didn't say no... on standard profile how can Ghost gamer make that better of its already stable, ECI cabs dont allow a 3db snr profile like Huawei and no vectoring or G.inp. Surely the DLM and the nature of your line and the laws of physics come into play at some point where nothing else can be done really? Also routing and peering points must enter into this too.

 ISP's dont talk in ping generally if at all, if your sync rate is as as it should be and you are not having HR/Rein/Shine or other issues, even crosstalk from other users. Rarely will an ISP get Openreach to change your ports in the cab unless its a serious fault and I don't believe they would for a ping issue as Openreach don't look into your ping at all from what I know. Even If it was changed then you could gain or lose throughput, as not all ports and associated cable runs are created equal. The different profiles are there to help lines that may need to be more stable as far as I know and I could be wrong.. if you have a good stable line on standard (fast) with fastpath on ECI cabs or you have G.inp enabled with a nice 3db profile on a Huawei cab all is good enough pretty much from most ISPs point of view I believe. I could be wrong though.

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41 minutes ago, Ghost Gamer Broadband said:

Hi Alex,

A “stable” (option 3) profile would result in the profile tolerances being lowered. This would have the affect of dropping sync speed, applying error correction or interleaving earlier should the line breach the pre-set DLM thresholds.

We use this profile where stability is required such as a line that’s dropping sync due to crosstalk or interface. (anything excessive and we would report as a line fault) But there are some scenarios where having a line operating with a large amount of “overhead” is preferred, such as VoIP where “uptime” is more critical.

Better to be on standard for a more lenient DLM as a talktalk user I am on standard.

Can DLM force the other profiles like stable or will it just add interleaving and leave it on standard?

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